The Joel on Software Discussion Group (CLOSED)

http://www.dba-oracle.com/jobs.htm

But you have to follow the link for the dress code for the good stuff:

http://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm

While I can understand where he's coming from. Right or wrong, like it or not, appearances do count when you're out at a client site.

That being said, I wouldn't work for him. Around our shop, shorts + T-shirt + sandals is typical attire. We all stash a set of fresh clothes in our work area in case we have visitors and have to unexpectedly run out to a client site. Our "dress up" mode involves (usually): Khakis, company shirt (polo-style) and loafers. We call this "dressed up" and it works for us.

I've never understood the implication that being neat, clean, groomed, and spit-shined leads to better quality work. It's simply a false assumption. I had to put up with that crap when I was in the military. It made no sense to me then, and it makes even less now.

What a shame - I can't work there:
"The degree must be from a University possessing a first-tier or second-tier rating by US News & World Report"

[US News doesn't rank the military academies]

Philo, USNA '89

Either the guy is crazy, or he has a very special sense of humour.
Anyway, he looks like a crook.

From your first link:

"professionals for challenging Oracle consulting jobs with some of the world's top companies."

From your second link:

"Consultants who are sloppy in appearance and manners will not be tolerated and a professional appearance and demeanor is required at all times for on-site engagements."

A seems to lead logically to B this time. Sorry.

Though, those pages only apply to working.  When not working, the following page applies:

http://www.dba-oracle.com/redneck.htm

On second thought, the funny stuff isn't on the second page, it's on the first page.

Minimum Oracle Job Requirements

"The degree must be from a University possessing a first-tier or second-tier rating by US News & World Report"

"All candidates must have a demonstrable commitment to the advancement of IT knowledge by publishing in at least one of the following areas"

"A minimum of 10 years of full-time, progressive experience in relational database administration and management." <-> "All BC consultants are required to possess an Oracle Certified Professional (OCP) certification."

Because you know that when you've been doing relational database work for 90 years, you have to take the Remedial Oracle class to get a certification.

Oh, that's scary. That "work naked from home" picture was really the owner of the company.

I thought this was a spoof... but it appears not.  After years of experience with various consultants, I'll stick by:

The quality of consulting is inversely proportional to the price of the clothes.

While there is such a thing as too cheap, but I know that if they're wearing expensive suits, jewelry, and fresh cuts - I'm paying for it in their hourly rate.  And they're spending lots of time on things that have nothing to do with my priorities.

This guy should spend more time on improving his horrid tacky web site than worrying about how expensive his employee's suits are.

No, I wouldn't work there, he looks like a used car sales man. Funny site though.

Holy shit!

I would rather be unemployed than work with him!

But I must say that his dress code page was hilarious! :)

JD

The pictures are funny, but the text makes him sound like a...well, that's not a nice word to use.

But then, maybe I'm just reacting this way because I have a Neanderthal-style single eyebrow.

"I know that if they're wearing expensive suits, jewelry, and fresh cuts - I'm paying for it in their hourly rate."

...which is why one guy I worked for fired an employee for taking a limo to a customer site. (For those who don't travel a lot, airport limos are actually pretty cheap; but the impression is still there)

Philo

JD - ditto!

That dress code page was a riot! Best thing I've read all day!

It's understood that people are willing to pay for value.  If you show up for work at a large client as a consultant and are wearing cheap clothes, then you're not playing the role of a "high-priced consultant".

It's not so much about fooling people but heading off negative thoughts about you.  Their first impression will be of your appearance, not of your ability.  You don't want to have to change their minds -- just solidify their impression of you.

Spend the money on the shoes, the accessories, the clothes, and they won't be asking themselves,"why are we paying this guy so much if no one else has?"

Wow, that is so funny...if it weren't so serioues. I suppose at least he has the guts to say what most of those 'professional' type employers merely think. I have been told off many a time because my clothese weren't expensive enough, or because my shoes weren't 'pointy' enough.

Though I loved this bit with regards to working at home."In the privacy of your own home you may dress any way you please .  Remember, being comfortable and productive is your primary goal."

ie At home productivity is the primary goal, at work you have to be uncomfortably, even if you become unproductive..just as long as we can't smell you cheap perfume...

And that redneck page is just proof of the reason why I left the accounting firms. Is he for real, does he not understand the hypocrisy when comparing the two pages?

Aussie Chick,

Don't blame the guy, this is what the market is paying for. At least he is decently competent (according to most of his book reviewers) and doesn't hide his hypocrisy. In a way, I like the fact that he states loud and clear what you have to put up with for +200000$ US / year. Take it or leave it.

I wouldn't work for him whatsoever though. Plus I don't like admin work, nor Oracle. Nor the military.

I've got to think this guy is doing this tongue-in-cheek.

He says women can't wear pants?!?!

All depends on the situation you are working in.

Of course, a somewhat conservative outfit seems apropiate to me if you have direct contact with the customer.

But the examples given at that link ... are ... ridicoulus (sp?).

Really, I mean, all that rules are either a) self-evident or b) just illogical.

Of course I wear freshly polished shoes (and not only when in front of a customer). Of course I trim my hair regulary. Of course I do not mix a pink shirt with brown trousers and a yellow jacket. etc etc etc

But harm can be done with a - let's say - blue shirt? AND maybe with a "geek"-tie (i.e. my favourite "101000101010010"-tie!?)

Again, YES, there might be customers (!!!) who are even more conservative. So what? So I just take my casual medium-colored-non-distracting tie.

I can't resist but laugh about that guy behind that link. He tries to "look not as such a nitpicker", but he certainly is. And that's somewhat disgusting.

I don't have a problem with most of what he says. I disagreed with the part that females cannot wear pants. There are some nice pants suits available.

I think the theme though should be more of let the client dictates what you wear. Ie if a client is in blue jeans, then why should a consultant be in a suit?

First time I see someone making a political statement but showing his beer belly :-)

Or... could it be the whole thing is tongue in cheek?

Would I work for a company like that.

No.

Never.

Not in a million years.

Anyone who writes self-indulgent crap about dress codes and what to wear when they don't have a bloody clue themeslves deserves to be burnt at the stake.

By the way Mr Burleson, that's a nice hair rug!

:-)

Look on the good side. Here is a guy who, I suspect, is taking the banks, lawyers and financial firms to the cleaners. This guy charges a fortune, which we all should do.

But, ugh, enterprise database work in suits working for a fat guy who works naked. No thanks.

I don't know.

On the one hand, he seems well aware that consulting is largely about the perception game, and he's playing to win--high requirements for employment, more-professional-than-thou demeanor.  On the other hand, his requirements are deeply out of step with the current climate.

On the whole, if I qualified, I'd apply, since his redneck theology page makes him seem like he understands that it's a game you play and says nothing about your inner character.  So, if you're willing to play the game, play it to win; and when you're not playing, don't act like you are.  Then again, I don't mind dressing neatly and conservatively.

Look at it this way: you have to hire one of two people who, by any measure you can come up with, are equally qualified to do the work.  One of them has really poor personal hygiene.  Who do you pick?

> First time I see someone making a political statement but showing his beer belly :-)
>Or... could it be the whole thing is tongue in cheek?

Yes, I wonder the same thing.

No, I don't think it's tongue in cheek. It's basically an Oracle guy who probably knows his field inside out and is very good and who - get this - decided to start charging the wahoo.

He probably charges $200 to $500 per hour to those banks and other arseholes. As a result, he's worth a few million, got a nice big house and all the trimmings. His cousins are wealthy landholders.

One of his guys was a Ranger. Pretty serious stuff. These guys would get the job done, no doubt about that. If you want to shine your shoes every morning, it's probably quite a good place to work.

But it's not my cup of tea.

If I needed a DBA consultant, I'd send away anyone who qualifies with their dress-code, immediately, with no excuses whatsoever, and forbid everyone from ever again even calling the company they came from.

That said, I won't get this. Is this one how they intend to make their company seem more "personal"? Wasn't that the current trend?

I think I know why it rubs me wrong - the whole website screams "I'm better than you, but if you meet all these criteria, I *might* take five minutes out of my incredibly busy day to read your resume. Or I might wipe my ass with it. But you'll still be blessed for having been near me."

IMHO, he's compensating. ;-)

Philo

It would beat the hell out of working for a lot of other companies.  MS included.

You don't see many sql server dba's pulling the money employees do.

I can't see the relevance of whether there are nice pant suits available or not.  If someone wants to wear pant suits its nothing to do with me, whatever their gender.

Hidden gender discrimination lies in exactly this kind of statement, the person saying it feels as if they're being progressive and treating people equally (and this doesn't exclude the possibility that the person that wrote it isn't also female), but the very fact that they feel the defence is about the quality of clothes rather than the irrelevance of the choice of those clothes exposes their undelying acceptance of inequality.

I think the guy simply knows his market. He's arrogant about it, but he no one's fool.

He's not selling services to the rank and file. He's selling services to upper management in big-wig companies.

These are the old school guys (like me, I guess) who started back in the days when suits were the norm for all white collar jobs in corporate America. (Note: I started in IT with NY banks back in the early 80's. All the IT guys wore suits although that started to change after a couple of years.).

Come into the office wearing casualy clothes, and management forms a picture of you as an overpaid, disrespectful, unreliable, computer geek. Come into the office in a well tailored suit and you're seen as a compitent professional. So what if the sloppy dresser is really a superstar with an MIT Phd and the pretty boy is a BS artist.

To many, "Perception is reality".

I happen to know an NYU computer science Phd who IS a programming superstar. He refuses to dress up no matter what. This has consistantly hurt his career over the years as he has been routinely passed over for promotions and raises which went to well-dressed, but less capable co-workers.

When I worked as a contractor, I always wore a suit regardless of the local norm. It's a perception thing. Now, as a gov. employee, I still wear an ironed white shirts almost all the time primarily because the only people in my department dressed in formal attire are management. I dress the part and act the part and get treated by the rank and file as if I am management. Helps me get my work done.

For the record, I consider it dressing up to wear a plaid button-up shirt with jeans and sneakers, yet this guy seems genuinely funny and might be a fun person to work for.

Anyway ... jeans and a t-shirt are no less a uniform than suit and ties. In most jeans and t-shirt organizations if you come in wearing a suit people will treat you with less respect.

If his customers are Fortune 500, and his employees are required to wear high-dollar suits (and dresses!), that implies a certain amount of class and professionalism exists in his organization.

However, using words like "booger" and posting some of the pictures that he did says "no class" to me.

Yes that was the bit I didn't get.

He went on about how important expensive suits/perfume etc was. Then we saw pictures of him in a run down house with his beer belly on display.

Class...you either have it or you don't, and wearing an expensive suit will not hide your lack of it, neither will jeans and sneakers disguise your abundance of it. (Small disclaimer my idea of what constitutes class does not equate to 'rich snob', rather someone of real worth)

<<In most jeans and t-shirt organizations if you come in wearing a suit people will treat you with less respect.>>

It's always struck me that many of the hypocrisy-sensitive tech folks never saw this as a problem. If you wear something nice you're one of the "suits", more concerned with appearance than functionality and therefore someone to deride. I guess everyone's gotta differentiate themselves...

"If you look and behave like a highly-trained professional you will win the respect and honor of our valued clients"

"If you are competent and capable, thus being able to provide a valuable service, you will win the respect and honor of our valued clients"

The two statements are so similar, yet so far apart.



"Dress Requirements for Female Consultants: [...] Skirt Suit - No pants allowed, ever [...] For Gods sake, shave your legs and armpits"

He says he's not trying to be a chauvinist, but he could have fooled me. (I'ld love to see his dress code for secvretaries though - might make it a pleasant place to work, at least for the men.)

Is this actually for real? Or is it just a remarkably bizzare and subtle troll?

Wait a minute - this doesn't add up at all.

Here's two of the things he's looking for:
(a) your degree is from one of today's best colleges
(b) you've been wroking for so long that you got your degree 20 years ago

Even if your chosen university was as good 20 years ago as it was today, isn't it possible that one or two things have changed in the last 20 years?

He definately values "appearance" far ahead of "competence" which leaves me wondering just what sort of "world class" service he actually offers.

Methinks this is not a serious site...

"He's selling services to upper management in big-wig companies."

Ah!  So that is why he makes his women wear skirts! : )

"I think the theme though should be more of let the client dictates what you wear. Ie if a client is in blue jeans, then why should a consultant be in a suit? "

Someone post a link to the Dilbert cartoon where he goes out to a client site in Vatican and is told to dress above the customer. :D

No, I would never work for that company in a million years, particularly since I would resent working for that company's customers.

If I'm good at my job, it's none of your bloody business if I wear jeans and a T-shirt instead of an Armani suit and drive a Defender on swamp wheels instead of a BMW.

I'd never trust an employer who smiles like "The Joker"...