The Joel on Software Discussion Group

So here's the current situation:

I was working at the company I've mentioned several times in the past on the discussion boards; the one that was insanely cheap and had no processes whatsoever.  My boss started a secondary company which he got me to do some work with; during this time his partner approached me with the option to go and work for his consulting firm, but through that continue to work on the startup.  The alternative was to get laid off from the initial company as they're struggling to stay afloat and felt that my salary was too much (despite being about $20,000 less than it should be).  Since I have a fair amount of bills to pay, I had little choice but to take the offer as the other option was unemployment.

Now, I work directly for the partner although I'm still responsible for the startup; on top of this my old boss, since he's co-owner of the startup, still thinks of me as the "IT Guy" and expects me to still do work for his wife's business (the one I left), and my current boss is billing them via his consulting company.  I've also found that the startup has, surprise surprise, little process apart from "get some crap out there" and the original business model has changed as to make the code, despite it being only 3 months old, nearly unmaintainable and it keeps changing.  My current boss's idea is to give everything over to an Indian company called "WebWerks" where he can get a senior developer on the cheap (or rather, someone who claims to be a senior developer).  This is his business plan - to have me be a systems analyst, coordinate things with the Indians, help him with specs and keep the application running smoothly, while all development is handled by an Indian team - he plans out full releases of the software in only a week (and the old boss of course wonders why things take more time than he thinks it should) when they should take 2-3 weeks, and claims this is because of the "businesses' requirements" which basically means they're overselling what it can do to convince people to go along with it or partner with it.  He, like his friend my old boss, has many additional startups and keeps talking about one that's sort of like the BestBuy rewards program and about to be funded by Sony; he's kept me wondering about my paycheck because he keeps asking me to wait for this project to be funded.  I had thought this would be a move in the right direction since this guy seemed to know how software is handled since he has a consulting firm, but he and my old boss both seem to be trying to get this company going out of desperation,  not the desire to have a good product (the old boss moreso because his wife's business might not survive the coming months).

Obviously, I have updated my resume and have it out there to see what other opportunities are available.  I'm also brushing up on my .NET skills.  I have to admit I always thought the old saying "birds of a feather" was a joke, but I guess I found out otherwise.

I'm not sure how to handle this situation if I do find another opportunity.  The old boss will probably throw a fit because it means that I won't be supporting his wife's business or his startup; he already bitches to his partner (current boss) because I don't drop whatever I do whenever his wife asks me do something - this despite the fact I'm not obligated to do ANYTHING for them.  My current boss is a nice guy (or he puts on a great show if he's not) but keeps talking about his other ideas and how if I give him a few months then "[I'll] be set for the rest of [my] life.".  The problem is that the current startup is moving in a direction that I feel is a huge mistake, and to be frank I don't want to get caught up in it when the shit hits the fan.  I'm tired of trusting my current boss because all he's given me so far is lots of hype without any delivery, and he's dead set on giving everything for his consulting company and all of his startups to India to save a few bucks and keep the main company "lean".  I'm sitting here at the end of a pay period and hoping that he'll give me a check by Monday so I can pay my car payment, and whenver I ask him he just assures me to give him time to finalize a round of VC funding.

My resume doesn't list this since I wouldn't know how to explain it anyways (My boss at Company X was going to fire me to avoid paying my salary but his partner at Startup Y offered me a job working for Consulting Company Z,  but I'm really working on Startup Y and doing side work for Company X, but being paid by Consulting Company Z, which is paid through Startup Y and eventually by Startup A when Startup Y's co-owner gets Startup A funded? - wow typing that doesn't even make sense to me.) but still lists that I'm at the old company.

Yes, I just needed to rant about this.  I'm trying to think of a good way to leave if I get something better without seeming like I'm screwing them over.  My theory is that my current boss will understand, but try to convince me to stick with him because Startup A is going to change the world (like I said, it's basically similar to Best Buy Rewards points, but available from things like artist websites and able to check it from anywhere, instead of going to a particular website - he wants it to end up like some form of alternate currency where you can pay with X number of points that you earn by clicking on advertising links), while my old boss will rant and rave and act like a spoiled brat and probably curse me out; in a bit of funny news someone at the old company (I'm sure it was his wife) had the nerve to hint that I may be trying to sabotage them, presumably because I don't answer to their beck and call now.

I was going to post tl;dr as a joke.

So then I actually read it. And it's too complicated a situation to really even start to comment.

It's strange that you got this new job and your new boss, who is paying you $20k less than market rate, is hiring you out as a consultant to your old job, presumably at some fabulous rate per hour that your previous boss was unwilling to pay.

It's like leaving your job to be a consultant for the company you worked for, but without the advantages.

The old boss was paying me $20K below; the new boss is paying me the same right now but continually hints at "six figures" when his other startup ("Startup A" as I call it, the weird rewards zone thing backed by Sony) takes off.

It is very complicated; I tried to explain it the best I could but reading that last paragraph where I try just makes my head spin.

Also there's some ambiguity if you're even getting paid.

Anyway you need to GTF out of there ASAP, and I wouldn't even give notice. Once you have the new job, start immediately and just don't show up, or leave a phone message on the company answering machine with a PO box where to send your final check.

Has he actually missed paychecks? How many, what is the pay period, and how late was payment?

Really if pay is late even 1 day, you need to stop work and get your  money from the person. I have in the past personally taken collateral, such as hardware and the backup tapes, to assure this.

This is the first one that's technically "late" (should have gotten it today).  Two weeks ago though I had to repeatedly bother him (like four days in a row) to make sure I was getting paid because I needed it for rent at a new apartment I was getting with my girlfriend.  The prior two weeks was my last technical paycheck at the old company; originally I had been getting paid from the old company but working for the startup (this was arranged because the owner of the old company is the wife of my old boss, the one who co-owns the startup with the "new boss" who has the consultancy that is paying me now)

OK, so you quit your old job to take this one.

The first paycheck after 2 weeks you had to beg him for.

The second paycheck he has missed payment on and you have no idea when it is coming. He is talking about "Getting VC" to pay you. That's a process that takes months at a minimum.

Dude, you do not have a job here. Your pay is not $20k below market, it's nonexistent.

So sounds like he charged the old guy hourly for your work he pimped out and then gave you that money after 2 weeks when you begged him. He has no income and no money.

There's no job here. Go in Saturday to grab what you can as collateral and don't show up Monday. You are unemployed and have been for 1 month.

Basically it went like this (trying to summarize);

* October 2007 - October 2009 was working for the old company (let's call them "Acme Office"), for my old boss (call him "Jim") and his wife ("Mrs. Jim").  From roughly August 2009 on I was working on Jim's startup most of the day, making sure Mrs. Jim's business stayed operational and paid by Mrs. Jim's company.

* Jim's friend and partner, let's call him Rob, approaches me with an offer to work for his consulting company ("Rob Inc") to get away from having to directly deal with Jim and Mrs. Jim.  At this point I can't stand dealing with Jim and Mrs. Jim, and Rob will let me work from home and basically make my own hours.  Jim and Mrs. Jim are okay with this, since Mrs. Jim is losing money hand over fist and probably would have to let me go soon anyways since they can't afford to pay me $45,000/year.

* October 5th I "officially" start work for Rob, but I'm still working on his and Jim's startup.  10/5-10/16 is my last paycheck from Mrs. Jim's company.  Rob keeps talking to me about his grand ideas for his other startups (which don't involve Jim) but the current one's business model seems to be let Jim, one of those smooth sales types, sell the shit out of the app and give the development to India to get done in half the time it should take.

* 10/19-10/30 is my first "real" pay period as an employee of Rob Inc.  Rob keeps telling me to give him time because he's trying to wrap up VC funding for his other company and when he does get that it'll be used to fund his and Jim's startup, the startup it's being given for, AND Rob Inc (he has a programmer and graphics guy who are literally working for free; he's told me how he's had to pay the graphics guy's internet bill sometimes so he can keep working).  After a couple days bothering him, Rob has Jim cut me a check through their startup, and tells Jim he'll put the money back when he gets funded.

* Brings us to today:  Technically, Rob is late with my next payment.  I asked him about this and again he says "Don't worry, I'm in Jacksonville tonight to finalize the VC funding.  You'll be taken care of."

I should add the startup that Jim and Rob have (the one I'm doing most of the work for) was acquired by a larger firm so it has funding - they're paying 4 other guys.  I work directly for Rob though, not for that startup (so I don't have to deal with Jim and can basically tell him "Talk to Rob" since he's not my boss anymore).

I'm inclined to agree.  Oddly this almost mirrors a situation of a former colleague.  Who I think did get fired in order to avoid paying him, and there was some crazy story with the owners physically removing capital (hardware, probably) from the building and I think someone getting locked out of CVS in the process.

Hey Jack Ass, wake up, they're using you like a two dollar whore.  Holy Christ how many years are you going to come on here and complain about this crap? 

At this point you're either a buffoon or a weird pervert who gets off on it.

I think I'm just naive, have low self esteem/self worth and live in an area that's pretty much terrible for technology.  So, having several thousand dollars in debt means that some job is better than no job at all when the alternative is being homeless and not having transportation to get to work.

I'm fully aware this is a fishy situation, that's why I specifically said I had started to circulate my resume again.

>> I'm not sure how to handle this situation if I do find another
>> opportunity. 

Good Lord, if you get another offer just walk away.  Tell them you'll give them two weeks notice IF they pay you for the two weeks in advance.  Otherwise, just leave.

You don't owe them anything.  They're treating you like cr*p and you're letting them.  The one you call a "nice guy" probably really is, and probably really believes that his little side venture is going to make it big.  But he's almost certainly wrong, and there's no reason for you to stick around for the ride.

They'll act all hurt and betrayed when you tell them you're leaving.  That's their problem, not yours. 

And, for the love of all that's holy, do not tell this story to any prospective employer.  Think up a simple two sentence answer to the question "why are you leaving your current job?" and use that.

Wayne - you need to leave as soon as you can. 

Go flip burgers or something while you recoup. 

@Scott
"I have in the past personally taken collateral, such as hardware and the backup tapes, to assure this. " 

I think that is really really bad advice - two wrongs do not make a right.  Cliche, I know, but that is really scary.

@Wayne

Surely, over these many years, you've been working on your own commercial software application on the side?

If not, get some job where you're actually getting *paid* -- non-programming is OK -- and write that application, put it out there, and get to work on becoming self employed.

Yeah, but I got paid and they got their gear back, so it worked out. A lot faster than paying an attorney $100,000 to spend 2 years in court over a $10,000 debt and in the end being faced with an insolvent bankrupt company.

@Scott - I meant you need an attorney to deal with criminal behavior on YOUR part...

I'm with Scott here. One time, a deadbeat client refused to pay me $10,000. I kidnapped his dog, and mailed the client pictures of it dangling over a wood chipper, along with a photo of his kid getting on the bus for school.

I got paid, and the client got his dog back unchipped, so in the end everything worked out OK.

Wayne:

Speaking from shared experience, immediately start looking for employment elsewhere. It's most likely a sinking ship. However, hold on to this job until you get a new job. This is a tough economy now and it may take a while, but it will be easier to get a new job when you already have a job.

Good luck.

Wayne,

It really sounds, from your previous posts and this one, as though your employers are seriously out of touch with reality.  You need to get a better grip on reality, even if it's an unpleasant one.  They've been funding the wife's business as a form of therapy for months now, and they have run out of cash to do that with. 

They are talking about a startup with a very foggy business plan:  use cheap foreign labor to mass produce websites, and use you to make the whole thing work.  There are thousands of businesses out there with exactly the same business plan.  What's going to make some VC pick this one over all the others?  It's not like there's a bunch of idle capital lying around looking for something to do. 

They plan on using rewards points as an alternative to currency.  Everybody and his brother wants to make a business that floats on funny money.  Are they going to pay you with funny money?  Are they going to pay the electric bills, the rent, and the phone bills with funny money?  No.  They need cash for that.  And the VC is going to want cash back from their clients in exchange for the risk he's taking.

Meanwhile, you are not doing your long term prospects any good by hanging onto these people.  You really need to be done with them.  Find a real job.  Give notice once you get one.  Don't follow Scott's advice about "collateral".  That's just plain theft, and it will be recognized as such.

It's not theft at all. It's keeping collateral until the debt has been paid. Theft is when you take something from someone who doesn't owe you anything and you have no intention of giving it back.

Criminal activity? Bah. No criminal activity on my part, but it WAS illegal for the employer not to pay me. That was the crime.

Wayne. I'm with the others here: GTFO and as soon as possible.

What worries me, though, is you're posting here with, what I assume is, a link to your personal blog. One of the first things a prospecive employer will do is Google your name.

If your current employers stumble across this (if they haven't already), you could be in trouble for outing the IP of the new product (Company Z, Sony?). If a potential employer hits this site, they may become concerned with how vocal you are.

Although it is probably too late now, I would consider posting in future without a link to your personal blog.

Even if they did (remember I've been botching about this place for a while now... Well the old place anyway) I have no contract or anything, especially not an NDA. I'm basically working off a verbal agreement.

Also while I suppose a prospective employer might be concerned with how vocal I am, just reading *why* I'm vocal about these companies would probably get me sympathy ;-). I've been vocal in the past for a very good reason as I've had several jobs that make the companies featured on the Daily WTF look like Google in comparison. IMO the only people who would be bothered by my asking for advice (I use this board like a shrink) the way I do are similar companies and I want to avoid those like the plague anyway!

Just be careful is all I'm saying :-)

+1000 Ewan.

Be careful. 

The same public messages that you think will evoke sympathy from readers could cause some HR weenie to classify you as "high maintenance".  And that's true even if most of the responders in here are on your side.

Guarding your future employability is one of the most important things you can do when you are young.

@Walter Mitty

It's maybe a sign of the 'internet age', but it is quite scary the amount of information that can be found out about a person without them knowing that they published it.

How many people (myself included, probably) have had a bad day and published something on one of the anacronisms and immediately regretted it? Quite a few I guess, but it is now there 'forever'!

Couldn't resist it, but BIG BROTHER *is* watching you :-)

Nothing to add on the specifics of your situation but I think you really need to look at one of the factors that is making this a difficult choice for you:

 "having several thousand dollars in debt means that some job is better than no job at all "

 You also mention needing a paycheck to make rent. As far as I can tell you have absolutely nothing in the way of savings. I'm sure there are reasons for this but whatever you do immediately about your job, try to learn the lesson that you never want to be dependent on an employer to cover your immediate living expenses. Sure, saving is hard and boring but having as little as one-month's food/rent/fuel money in the bank would make this scenario significantly less awkward.

Wayne:

I workfull-time for a venture-capital funded company, let me advise you seriously consider what % of pay you are willing to take as deferred compensation in the form of stock options.

Then tell the boss that "I am willing to work for 35% of my pay in the form of futue stock.  I figure I am worth 85K/hr, so I'll work for you for a salary of 55K" or whatever the math turns out to be.

If he accepts that, the next step is to ask him for a term sheet on the business and the stock options in writing.  It sounds to me like he will not be willing/able to do this.

If that is the case, I would keep in mind that you are now working for good will in the event of some future event. 

I'm willing to do that, to the extent of buying lunch, or being a counseling ear, or helping rake leaves - basic good neightbor stuff.  But for a living ? get out of here.

I worked for a dotCom in 1999.  The term stock options kept coming up, but nothing tangible ever materialized.  The owner sold the brick and mortar company to a competitor, which allready had an e-commerce arm.  I was laid off in 2000.

Learn from my experience.

regards,

"Telling me to give him time because he's trying to wrap up VC funding for his other company and when he does get that it'll be used to fund his and Jim's startup, the startup it's being given ..."

I've been through two funding rounds on sand hill road.    (Silicon Valley) My experience is that if the company is in good shape, the close takes weeks longer than the CEO thought it would.  If the company is in bad shape, it takes MONTHS longer than the CEO thought it would.

Your Mileage May Vary.

So does the new place have hot water?

@SM:  Yes, why yes it does.  I get to work remotely most of the time so that's a major plus.  I'm just skeptical on the whole "This is going to be BIG" mentality; it seems like they're setting out not to make something useful but to strike it rich.  I'm not privy but I hear all the time how great it is.. for example my current boss said he had lunch today with Elton John's manager to discuss opportunities for this idea.

It sounds like delusions of grandeur to me, but I'm content as long as I get a decent paycheck; the fact I can remotely work and the fact the new boss is extremely flexible means I can spend most of the day working concurrently on things for him and things for my own business (which is just a clean, simple idea to solve a problem, not change the world)

OP: "I think I'm just naive, have low self esteem/self worth and live in an area that's pretty much terrible for technology"

You live within 1-2 hour from two major cities, St Petersburg and Tampa. I work in NYC and for us 2 hour commute is not uncommon. Just apply for a job there, get some experience and pay off your bills. Downsize whatever you don't really need. And stop being a wuss.

"I am willing to work for 35% of my pay in the form of futue stock.  I figure I am worth 85K/hr, so I'll work for you for a salary of 55K"

This plan does not seem to take into account risk. Given what he has said and my estimation of the owner's trickiness, I would say there is a 2% chance that any stock issued would be valid stock that he could sell. Assuming it is good, based on my estimate of the company's competence, there is a 0.5% chance it will ever be above the strike price. So, to get $30,000 compensation at the risk factor of 1000, would need to be 30 million dollars in likely profit (per year) of stock options in order to be equivalent to a real salary.

I live even closer to Tampa since I just moved to Lutz with my girlfriend. I have been looking and applying but because of the rough economy there is a lack of junior-level positions; everything wants 5+ years experience.  I'm focusing on brushing up on my skills in the meantime but it's not a substitution for real experience.

Besides I thought you guys enjoyed my zany stories? ;-)

Keep in mind, you are dealing with salespeople.  They want to hit a home run, and will strike out 99+% of the time.  Which is a polite way of saying they are bs'ing you.

Agree with the others.  Get Out Now.

Also agree with the others about linking to your blog, you really don't want any negativity at all when the HR droids figure out how to google you.  Remember, they have a stack of 10**n resumes, any reason to reject means tsol.

As far as Sony, I once interviewed there for a contract, didn't hear back after they said I would start in a week, called a few times, got voice mail, gave up.  Read in paper a month later the division was shutting down.

Is bosses' wife good looking?

I could be misinterpreting this, but I get the impression that part of the reason you are so willing to take this abuse (for lack of a better word) is because of your other financial worries.  Debt and the inability to make ends meet tends to make most career concerns much more intense.

I agree with the advice others have given you.  Get out and flip burgers until you figure out what you are going to do.  A gaurenteed paycheck from your local fast food joint is better than no paycheck at all.  I won't repeat the wise words others have already said.

However, I do want to contribute one thing.  Do you have a written budget?  You mentioned that you moved with your girlfriend.  You and she need to sit down and figure out what your expenses are.  Figure out how much you NEED to make and come up with a plan.  If you can't come up with a plan on your own, I recommend the Dave Ramsey plan.  Basically you will set aside $1000 for emergencies.  Then begin paying off your debts from smallest to largest.  Then save up for a 3 - 6 month emergency fund.

Working through these steps will empower you.  And, once you have an emergency fund built up you will be able to face these career issues with much more control.  You will not be at the mercy of people who will take advantage of you...  instead, you will be able to do what is best for you.

From this post and other posts, it is obvious how unhappy you are.  Work toward your happiness and peace of mind and the career stuff will become so much easier to deal with.

Goodluck.

He's paying me, the issue is that I still have to deal with the old boss, who is his partner on their startup.  The old boss still thinks of me as "The IT Guy" and wants me to continue to help out his wife's business even though I no longer work for her (and him by extension).  My new boss is an IT Pro with 20+ years experience but seems to think that a proper business model is come up with a great idea, and send the work overseas to India for $800/month.  Just like the old boss he has dozens of business ideas that he wants to get off the ground and instead of focusing on one it's get one half-assed running, and go start another one.  Despite us discussing the fact I didn't want to be the "IT Guy" and be responsible for server configuration, troubleshooting and the like, I'm still stuck in this situation and the excuse is given that it's because we're a startup.  Like I said before he keeps talking to me about his other big ideas and how if I give him a couple of months I'll "be set for life" but I'm smart enough to know this is all bullshit without real facts behind it. 

Like always I know the situation is bad and the answer is to GTFO.  I just need to rant and as I said earlier I use this board kind of like a shrink.  My resume is updated and is out there, but there never was a lot of developer jobs that I've seen and even fewer that are towards the junior level where I can find a good environment and build up my expertise.

Q:  How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Just one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

Startups generally lack process and have to move really fast. They are typically disorganized. I don't really care about this... it is just he way it is. It is better than being on some big boring behemoth project. Things improve slowly.

You understand this if you found once since you have equity. You are just low cost staff who they work long hours. You are NOT going to get rich off of this even if it takes off. Why would they share the wealth? You are staff.

You are just staff. You have no equity. If you don't have officially equity you won't be taken care of. you are just staff. If you are worried about a company not paying you it is time to leave.

I can  understand a bad job market
I can understand a lack of experience
you need to do more than brush up on .net. you need to make yourself good at it. the market is bad.

Why do you care if you make them mad. This is what I would do

1. get a new job
2. if you are still worried about getting paid, hold onto your laptop or have some critical thing they need delivered but don't give it to them
3. email to the manager "I quit effective immediately. I am owed $X through Y Date. I have had to repeatedly ask to be paid and have not been paid on time. I will return X equipment and deliver Y assignment when I am personally handed a cashiers check for what I am owed"

The bottom line is if you quit you burn the bridge since that is the obvious personality of your boss. So what difference does it make if you drop napalm on it?