The Joel on Software Discussion Group

For the same reason (sort of) that I don't post my resume on Monster/Dice/Yahoo/et.al.  I won't be posting on stackoverflow jobs either.

Why?  Because there is no way in the WORLD I want my employer to find out I'm looking for a new position (or even amenable to a discussion about a new position, which I always am, no matter how happy I am with my current position).

I can tell you though that I will be signing up to find out who I work with IS looking for another position.  I'm guessing HR will do the same.

I've been one of the chief careers skeptics, but I'm not quite sure I get this objection.

What do you think your HR department would do if it found that your CV was online?  And if they would take some sort of retributive action, is that really a company you want to be working for?

It's not a two way street (employee to employer).  'They' have all the power, we control very little.  So, yes, I can imagine retribution if they see someone wants to leave.

Also, I really don't get the 'do you really want to work there?' bit.  Some of us don't have a choice as the trade-offs aren't worth the 'better place to work'.  1 year ago, it was the best job I had ever had and I couldn't imagine leaving.  That's not the case anymore.

One more thing, while I eat with my co-workers every day, I have some co-workers who never eat with us.  It's not that they don't like us, it's just that we're not as important as other things in their life (spouses, sports, a break from work, etc.) that they do over their lunch.

You can also block your CV from appearing in searches from certain companies.

The main objection I have is the IQ of HR depts I have dealt with. Their role in most companies seem to be to fix spelling errors in job ads (PERL->PEARL most usefully) and then insult candidates (can you resend you CV in doc not pdf/txt, we only have a virus scanner for doc).

The idea of an HR dept actively searching for people on SO is laughable - it's only going to be used by recruitment agencies trawling for database stuffing CVs

>What do you think your HR department would do if it found that your CV was online? 

I once worked at a bank [1] which had a very severe policy about this sort of thing. If they overheard [2] you saying that you were looking for another job, well, that was your last day at work - the subsequent morning you'd be greeted at your desk by your boss, a guard from "security" and a box to carry your personal possessions in. 

Notes: 
1 - This place had a well earned reputation for being a pain in the rear to work for, consequently they had to pay large premiums to get developers to work there. Since they also had a security policy that meant that contractors were not allowed to work past the 90-day contract, one knew that one had a well-paid 3 month gig (if you could stomach the bondage and discipline that the suits required).
2 - All telephone lines were recorded and played back by "security." It is my understanding that this sort of thing is required by federal regulations. "Banking secrecy" in the US means that it is against the law for any financial institution to inform  you that you are under investigation.

As an employer and just can't imagine that attempting to "woo" a developer away from a job that he/she doesn't absolutely hate is more effective than mining the depths of those losers actually looking for a job (as Joel frames the scenario). The only time I've seen the "stealing" strategy has work is when the candidate had a personal relationship with an existing employee at the new company. Even then we paid a huge premium to convince them to come, which may have overvalued the skills of some...

SO is a very closed community with infinite feedback loops that elevate the SO rockstars to god-like status; I'm sure they're all very nice people, incredibly smart and very good programmers, but I don't believe your performance on SO is a very good proxy for what makes you a good employee -  which is what this careers venture is all based on. If you're an awesome programmer and looking for a change you will go out and easily have your choice of positions. All said, SO careers could work well for short-term, premium-priced consulting where you want a rockstar prima donna and will pay the required toll.

"It's not that they don't like us, it's just that we're not as important as other things in their life (spouses, sports, a break from work, etc.) that they do over their lunch."

And that was the problem I had with his post. I never eat with my co-workers unless it's a lunch meeting. It's not that I don't like them, it's because I eat at my desk.
Taking an hour off to go to a restaurant or to the cafeteria (food is passable!) means that's an hour more I have to stay here. I don't hate my job, but seeing my wife is much more appealing than another hour at work.

OTOH, when I was single, I went out to eat with co-workers pretty much every day since the "make up" time didn't matter. No one to go home to means spending a few extra hours at work wasn't a big deal.

Ok, I realize I came off like a prick in my first post, and I apologize.

I'm not looking to change jobs, but if someone offered me double my salary and a beachfront condo to work on an amazing project with a team of brilliant developers, I'd certainly listen.  And if that is at all surprising to my employer, then they are very naive.

Which may be what makes this a positive development -- having a step between "not looking" and having recruiters faxing my resume to every company with 50 miles with an opening that has "developer" in the title.  If it becomes common practice for developers to have an online CV, and it's not seen as a sign that someone will be out the door in a matter of months, it seems more likely we'd end up with jobs that mazimize our satisfaction.

Maybe a large corporation isn't gonna have time to search for resumes of all 1000+ of its employees but what about a small startup with no HR dept? I could easily imagine the owner of a small company doing that.

I heard of a company putting fake job ads in the local paper without listing their name (this was before the internet) in order to see if anyone who already worked there applied, and if they did they got fired.

And yes the common response to this is "why would you want to work for a company like that anyways?" but in this recession jobs aren't easy to come by for all of us.

@Bill,

I know that jobs are hard to come by, but it seems to me that a company engaging in subterfuge like that is ultimately doomed anyway, so if you're betting your stability on a company like that, you've still got problems at a higher level.

I understand that that company is still paying this month's bills, which is a more immediate concern for many of us, but accepting a relationship like this is harmful to our long-term stability.

>>"I heard of a company putting fake job ads in the local paper without listing their name (this was before the internet) in order to see if anyone who already worked there applied, and if they did they got fired."

I'm not saying BS, since I'm sure there are at least a few psychopathic small-business owners out there, but that certainly sounds like the kind of story you read at snopes.  Especially since it started with "I heard of..."

What would the incentive be for the employer?  The only scenarios I could imagine is they are in need of doing layoffs and looking for some kind of sick cop-out method of executing them.  In any event, that doesn't really sound like a smart business decision -- or a company that is destined to go places.

I'm skeptical that enough job seekers will pay $99/year to be on Stack Overflow.

Not to mention that the whole "having an open source or Internet 'rep' gets you a job" theory has been fairly thoroughly discredited.  (It probably ruins as many jobs as it helps.)

I wish Stack Overflow the best of luck but this seems like a poor idea.  It'll probably be converted to a free system before you know it.

I did work somewhere where in a meeting they mentioned that theyd found several employees' resumes on monster and would they please remove them.  This was in around 2002, there was a salary freeze, it was just a really bad time to be in that position.  It does happen.

@farmboy

I agree - No matter how great the people are at work - it is just that - work.

If you see the staff at Joel's company you notice one thing.  They are all young and presumably unmarried and childless.

We'll see if Joel is talking about families and things in a few years when his staff matures.

What would be the difference between this, and, for example, having an up-to-date LinkedIn profile?  I suppose LinkedIn's mission is not explicitly about finding people jobs, which this is, but, this seems closer to LinkedIn than Monster.

you just don't give your real name.

you seriously take this stuff too seriously. You can be anonymous on Monster anway. or just make up a name.

"I can tell you though that I will be signing up to find out who I work with IS looking for another position.  I'm guessing HR will do the same. "

why do you care and why is this your business?
alot of people keep their resume on the web. It is the norm.

I take it you will tell HR that someoen has their resume posted. Most HR departments really don't care...

One thing missing from Joel's "talent market" is a way to rate *employers*.  You may be able to get an idea of what it's like to be a developer at Google, Microsoft or Fog Creek by surfing the web.  But if you're considering a career at the Minnesota Widget Corp or Advanced Space Dynamics, you really don't have a lot to go on unless you know somebody who already works (or has recently worked) there.  Even within big companies, there can be huge differences in how well people working in different groups are treated.

If Joel wants to provide great opportunities for talented developers, he needs to complete the feedback loop - provide  a way for people to honestly and fairly rate the various places they've worked.  This has the added benefit of giving employers more incentive to treat people well,  just like Yelp and Trip Adviser provide a strong incentive for restaurants and hotels to treat their customers better.

@Contractor

I care because I care (sorry about that).  I surely won't tell HR I just like to know who's looking to leave.  BTW, our HR fit the description near the top of this thread to a 'T' and can't find their a$$ with a flashlight and a handbook.

And, it's NOT the norm to have your resume on the web, because most companies that see that sort of thing automatically assume that you're looking to leave. 

To the others who said not to list your real name, that doesn't work either.  As soon as they (the famous HR) search for your company name and see any bit of a description, even OUR HR is capable of adding 2 + 2 and figuring out who has posted.

Is this a cultural thing? Either a regional culture, or simply the environment you work in?

For me (and everyone I know), having a CV online is perfectly acceptable, even when gainfully employed.

No employer I've ever worked at would consider it a problem, nor would there be any recriminations.

Realistically, I wouldn't much care if I found out a staff member had been approached by another company and interviewed with them, but turned it down. I've done that before, and there have been no recriminations. Thinking your staff should never consider any offer from anywhere ever seems to me to be treating them like halfwits -- employment is a commercial transaction, each party has something the other wants and agrees on fair market value for it. Thinking an employee shouldn't even care to see if their 'going rate' (including intangibles like position + location, not just salary) could be higher elsewhere if someone approaches them strikes me as wanting stupid employees who don't understand the simplest aspects of capitalism. Not what I'd want in a technical employee.

Actively seeking a job -- ringing around, posting on mailing lists, etc -- would of course be a no-go, but passively having a resume available is a complete non-issue as far as I (and I think most everyone I know the industry) is concerned.

"And, it's NOT the norm to have your resume on the web, because most companies that see that sort of thing automatically assume that you're looking to leave."

That's a pretty definitive statement. Do you have any basis for it besides your own personal experience?  Out of 6 employers I've worked for only one would have objected to employees posting an online CV, and that one wouldn't have been able to find it without the employee nailing a yellow sticky with the URL to the HR department door. I understand that some folks do work in places where this would be punished, but why should that be a constraint on the rest of us?

As I read it, SO is doing this in two tiers. You can post a vanity CV for free. It's linked to your SO profile, but it is not searchable by employers. This is really not much different from having a Facebook profile, just for a more targeted audience. "Hey, I used to work in FORTRAN IV on an IBM 1130 too!". If you pay the money you can make your resume searchable by employers, but you have to the option to say: "Do not show my resume to queries from the following domains".

The problem with a "employees rate employers" website is that you'll get sued when people post something negative.

For example, suppose someone worked at abusivejerk.com, and posts something negative.  Then, the owners of abusivejerk.com will sue to get that negative feedback removed.

@FSK

Which is just a continuation of what has happened in the last 20 years where you can't get a letter of recommendation from a previous employer anymore as this exposes them to lawsuits from the people who hire you based upon the 'false' praise.

Sad.

The issue with this idea as I see it is not about employers being upset that you have your details online but about the general nature of how employers seek development staff. I don't see how this concept encourages new behaviour or attitudes or gives employers a clear way to understand who is worth talking to (surely the idea of SO points being a reasonable measure isn't serious?).

Right now I get fairly regular enquiries from agencies that are sourced either from my LinkedIn profile or from people passing on my contact details. The fact is that these tend to be exactly what you'd expect -- agency fishing -- and not serious employers ready to have a conversation.

 The Hollywood model assumes that there is a transparency to the concept of "personal value" that simply doesn't exist for the majority of developers. There's no equivalent of the contact sheet or show-reel and actual contribution to past projects is not easy to determine. If you have the sort of resume that provides this transparency ("Hey, I'm Ted McCoder and I personally wrote the entire software stack for successfulsocialmediasiteX.com.") then you don't need an SO profile and if you don't then having one won't make any difference.

I live in the US. I don't know what country the original poster is from. I have had my resume on the web since about 2000. I never took it down. not once. I don't always updatei t and keep it current when I am not looking (it does not have my latest employer on it).

I don't use my real name.

you just leave out the name of your current employer if you are worried.

The one time I had an issue was from an idiot contract company (I was corp to corp). I got a spam email from their recruiter based off my resume on the web(which I never took down).  It was for a spot at the same company I was at. I told him I was already at this project through them, but may know something else.

they gave me attitude about why my resume was on the web. I deleted the mail and blew them off. They stopped by to talk to me and I told them to never talk to me again.

I never had a problem with an actual HR department at a real company though. Just 1 idiot contract company. I was onsite so they couldn't do anything to me. "fire me" and they lose the spot at the company. So I didn't care.

I must admit that the error feedback when trying to login to any of these sites is rubbish.

I just tried to log in to http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ with my OpenID and it didn't work. And that's all I get told. A bit more info. please on why it might not be working!

Slightly off topic I know, apologies.

One thing missing from Joel's "talent market" is a way to rate *employers*.  -- J. Peterson

There is already glassdoor.com for that purpose.

BTW, managers can be idiots about this. About 5-6 years ago I had an interview somewhere else. So I war a dress shirt and suit pants to work. My boss asked me why I was dressed like that. I told him I forgot to do a wash. He laughed.

I resigned about 2 weeks later.