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students outsourcing homework to India

http://management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39250909,00.htm

How do they expect to pass an interview if they do this?
Contractor
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
But it's perfect!
You want students to learn practical skills, if they go and work as managers in IT then the practical skills will involve outsourcing the work to India.
Then surely these are the best qualified students?
Martin Send private email
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
+1 to Martin

The problem has always existed. It is just so much easier (and cheaper) to cheat now. The work of the students has to be examined (more) thoroughly to make sure that they did it themselves. Of course, this presumes that the lecturers have actually read the coursework which is not really practical.

Bring the closed book exam and only the closed book exam if you are really that concerned.
darkt
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
These kids have learned the most important skill required to climb the corporate ladder; getting other people to do your work.

Your kids will be working for them.
Steve Hirsch Send private email
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
Being lazy and delegate work to others - the most important skills of a manager.
QADude Send private email
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"How do they expect to pass an interview if they do this?"

Easy - they'll purchase a university receipt and trumpet it on their resume.

Besides, like others have already said, delegation and getting others to do your work is exactly the way business works for anyone not on the bottom rung.
The Original Henry
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
I would also like to cynically point out that these students are learning the valuable management skill of paying others to do your work.

:/
my name is here
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"Easy - they'll purchase a university receipt and trumpet it on their resume."

That's such crap. They won't pass an interview loop.

Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
outsource; how I hate you.
Victor Noagbodji
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"Besides, like others have already said, delegation and getting others to do your work is exactly the way business works for anyone not on the bottom rung."

Very true.  It's where the old saying, "shit always rolls downhill" comes from.

However, if you don't know your shit you'll be a prime candidate for the peter principle and most companies practice it even when they say they don't.
~Eric
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
<pre>
That's such crap. They won't pass an interview loop.
</pre>

They may not pass a decent interview but they can pass massive group hirings done by some companies.

One of my colleagues from Univ. did this and got into <big ass multi national consulting company> without even having a finished degree. They are always hiring like crazy and do group hirings where they let in more than 20 persons at a time. They don't test tech skills or CS knowledge, they just test basic math and languages skills, give some language training and put the employees in clients. He got fired after 6 months and went to another interview as if he was still working there and got a new job in <yet another relevant consulting company> partially due to the good name of the first company. This time around he was smart enough to request that he would do something other than programming so he's still there working with some program.
[TheWeasel]
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
<pre>
and languages skills,
</pre>

With this I don't mean "programming languages", but natural languages, like English.

And that guy went through his degree by cheating like crazy. He does make decent money.
[TheWeasel]
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
Weasel, I feel your pain.  And sadly, Steve Hirsch got the analysis just about right.

One of the guys I went to school with cheated his way to a B.A. in CS (even though his "cheats" were usually more trouble than just doing the project).  Everybody knew it, but somehow he avoided the chopping block.  He was then accepted to the university's graduate business school early (basically some sort of 4+1 program).

Now this guy was a huge jerk and a total blowhard.  He once told a friend of mine that she'd never amount to anything because she was from western Pennsylvania, as opposed to Connecticut (his homeland).  I worked with him on a group project where his entire contribution was setting up a server and submitting a chunk of our final paper that was so bad the rest of us had to rewrite most of it.

Fast forward two years.  Apparently these are the skills needed to do well in business school, because he now has an MBA and works as an account manager for some financial outfit that caters to the super-rich.

He was the laughingstock of our CS department, a guy you wouldn't trust with five bucks, and now he's giving advice to people who are worth 100 million and up.

Every time you think society has hit rock bottom, someone invents a better shovel.
Justice Walker
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
+1 Justice Walker

The sad truth is that the most successful people in this world seem to be the ones who can lie, cheat and steal their way to success, while those of us who try to work hard and do things the right way get left behind.

It works that way in business, as well.  You would be surprised how many cheap, crooked scumbags I have worked for who should have gone bankrupt and been out on the streets, yet were making millions of dollars from clueless people who didn't know any better.
WayneM. Send private email
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
Justice, why didn't you submit a peer evaluation? Ot notify the professor? Or the office of Academic Honesty (or whatever your school called it)?

You can complain about it all day long, but if you didn't do anything to cause a consequence for the student in question, you're just allowing them to walk all over you on their way to the "top."
anomalous
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"The sad truth is that the most successful people in this world seem to be the ones who can lie, cheat and steal their way to success, while those of us who try to work hard and do things the right way get left behind."

That's just not true.  I does happen, I agree, but it's just not the norm.  You don't have to look far:  May I remind you of Enron, Arthur Anderson and Worldcomm?

Look at it this way... Those of us who are ethical and do the right thing, get to sleep with a clear conscious... I forget where I heard this but someone put out an article that effectively stated that everything you need to know to be successful in conducting business affairs is learned in grade school; then drew analogies to things like not yelling, using nice words, etc...
~Eric
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
I do wish to point out that bullshitting or networking is the single most important step you can make in landing management level jobs.  So while I believe you need to know your shit, you still have to be someone who can network them self.

In fact, research has shown that most senior level jobs are obtained through networking.  (can't list my source off hand at the moment but it has been well covered & documented).  It is often referred too as the good ol' boy network.

The other thing is that the stereo typical geek is a anti-social or is not good at picking up social queues.  So the more you practice networking the more of a leg up you will have.

www.theteng.org is often cited as a place to help people network them self.  One of the companies I started, we hired our CEO through the good ol' boy network and the other company I bought and sold, the CEO came along for the ride. These were small deals but the concepts don't differ for the simple fact that money follows management; an old wall street axiom.
~Eric
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
i love it.

they won't get through my test; but at least they're gaming the system in a creative way.
lemon shakespear obrien Send private email
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"they won't get through my test;"

They won't have too if you're not a c-level person and if you are, all it takes is money my friend.  Didn't you ever hear the phrase that money talks and bullshit walks?
~Eric
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
Go read everyone's favourite website, http://thedailywtf.com/

Then remember that the reality is a great many working "programmers" have all the software development skills of a roast potato.

And guess who'll be doing the interviewing when the homework-outsourcers show up.

Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"They won't pass an interview loop"

That is incorrect because the interviewers themselves will also have cheated their way through school and not know what they are talking about. Entire companies filled with incompetants. The people doing the labor will be in India... for a while. But the government is already realizing the value of having highly skilled people in the american prison work camps where they are shackled, paid 20 cents a day to do forced skilled labor for companies like Dell, Microsoft and IBM.
Tony Chang
Thursday, June 26, 2008
 
 
"Entire companies filled with incompetants."

Is this a deliberate joke?

Made me laugh anyway.
Cheech
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
@anomalous:

The basic problem with trying to do anything was a combination of proof and lazy professors.  A friend of mine was a TA for one of the classes where this had happened, and did in fact report it to the professor, but not much came of it.  That class had a number of other problems, such as the time the "starter code" for a project was replaced with the solution, but that *may* have been a TA screwup.

Mostly what he did was work on a "team" with someone and then ride on their work.  People did complain a few times to professors, and I'm pretty sure he failed one project over the cheating allegations, but that didn't wax his academic career.  Word got around though, and after a while nobody would work with him on projects (which is most likely why he stopped at a BA).

As for the business school, cheating (both regular and the "group project" kind) is apparently par for the course there.  Or so claims a friend of mine who just polished off her MBA.

Perhaps I should have said he sleazed his way into a degree.  I see your point of course, but at the time, apathy was a powerful force.
Justice Walker
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
It doesn't work that way at my b-school. People cheat (and always will), but they'll kick you out in a heartbeat if they catch you.
anomalous
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
Most places do not require any actual coding. Just some fluffy, superficial questions about syntax, and you're in. Sad but true. I remember thinking ore than once: "Man, I could've totally faked that and they would have no idea..."
Ken Sharpe Send private email
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
Ken, If you had faked that you would not last long in your new job? And when they had noticed, your reputation would not be good, would it?
Asbie Send private email
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
<pre>
Ken, If you had faked that you would not last long in your new job? And when they had noticed, your reputation would not be good, would it?
</pre>

Those kinds of guys who managed to get through college by cheating are not worried with their reputation. They are just worried about getting some money in. If they are fired, they make their way into another company. It's not a "nice person" mindset.
[TheWeasel]
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
True that. We all know at least one guy who couldn't program, went through a string of jobs where he would work there 6 months, they'd figure out he couldn't program, he moved to the next one. Every single job he'd pick up a new set of acronyms, and pretty soon he is hiring himself out at a 7 figure management consultant who has worked for all of the big IT companies, and has worked on projects encompassing every known language and toolkit.
Tony Chang
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
@eric

yeah, i know.
lemon shakespear obrien Send private email
Friday, June 27, 2008
 
 
It's funny, but at the Technion ( http://www.technion.ac.il/ ) there was a course ("Image Processessing and Analysis") where my partner and I sat for days on end doing the homework (up to 24:00 or even more) and handed in the right assignments. And we got 80%s - low 90%s. However, looking at the gradesheet, there were many students who got 100% or close, so we figured out they probably used a reference and copied it, and it was graded well, since it was exactly what the homework checkers expected.

After doing all that, and covering all the past exams in the tests' booklet, I knew the material perfectly. But I nearly failed both tests, and ended up getting 58% in the course.

It was still one of my favourite courses material-wise, but I still resent the course's staff for being so unfair.

Also see:

http://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/Gimp/

For a presentation I prepared based on what we learned there (but intended for laymen).
Shlomi Fish Send private email
Sunday, June 29, 2008
 
 
Check out Don Norman's "In Defense of Cheating" http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/in_defense_of_c.html

===

Consider this: in many ways, the behavior we call cheating in schools is exactly the behavior we desire in the real world. Think about it. What behavior do we call cheating in the school system? Asking others for help, copying answers, copying papers.

Most of these activities are better called "networking" or "cooperative work." In the workplace these behaviors are encouraged and rewarded.
Drew Kime Send private email
Monday, June 30, 2008
 
 
<pre>
Asking others for help, copying answers, copying papers.

Most of these activities are better called "networking" or "cooperative work." In the workplace these behaviors are encouraged and rewarded.
</pre>

Well, "asking for help" is not necessarily "cheating". You could ask your colleague something about language syntax, or help with some function in a project where you did all the rest. This will go on for your job and it's indeed a good thing.

Regarding the encouraged behaviours, the problem with that is when one gets through the whole degree with cheating and then is really incompetent to a point where others have to do the job.
[TheWeasel]
Monday, June 30, 2008
 
 
Open Source Software = Copying homework from other students

Team Work = Doing a take home exam with other students

:-)

Tuesday, July 01, 2008
 
 
So what???

The only one who will suffer the consequences is the student, if  the "homework" is at all that important, which in most cases isn't (and everybody knows that).

cya!

--
Nicolás Miyasato (miya)
http://nmiyasato.blogspot.com
Nicolás Miyasato Send private email
Wednesday, July 02, 2008
 
 

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