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The Joel on Software Discussion Group (CLOSED)

I've read where it isn't really a good career move to hang out with co-workers.  OTOH, I've also read that this helps as you're seen as more of a "team player".  I have some co-workers who are trying to get me to go with them to the bar or party with them, is this a good idea?  That's assuming I keep my drinking under control.

It can help or hurt you, depends how savvy you are and whether you buy into the political power games.

Only one rule as far as I am concerned -- don't get sexually involved with coworkers.

Sure, go...but only if it's who you are.  Don't go drinking with them if you don't drink.  If they're not the kind of people you really want to hang out with, or if they don't do the kind of things you like to do, don't fake it.

"Sure, go...but only if it's who you are.  Don't go drinking with them if you don't drink.  If they're not the kind of people you really want to hang out with, or if they don't do the kind of things you like to do, don't fake it."

The bar scene is not really something I've ever gotten into.  My college days were spent working full time and going to a commuter campus so I never really got into that scene.  Now that I'm past college age and have few chances to meet people (especially women), I start thinking that maybe I should get out more.  And I don't really have anyone else to go bar hopping with since most of my friends are either married or moved out of town.

You want to be a peer of your boss's peers. That's the secret to the CXO old boy's network.

> Only one rule as far as I am concerned -- don't get sexually involved with coworkers.

Shouldn't that be:

Don't get sexually involved with coworkers that aren't really really hot.

Well, seriously, as for hanging out with coworkers, it's probably a good idea as long as you don't gossip or bad-mouth people. Keep positive and that should be fine. If there are only bad things to say, then spin it or keep quiet.

If you want to "get out more" then going to crowded rooms with loud music and trying to talk to strangers who're in varying states of intoxication and are either already with friends and/or are liable to pass on embassing diseases seems like an odd sort of plan. An alternative is to get yourself a hobby.

Here's a possibility: either your friends are boring and patheic, or they're capable of doing things without their spouse being attached to their hip. Therefore do things with friends. Crazy idea, I know, but it seems to work for some people.

Whe whole sitting at home crying into your third bottle of whiskey because your friends are married and you can't see them any more is just silly.

Go out to the bar, maybe it wasn't your thing yet, but you never know.  Many times we go out after work on a friday, have 2 or 3 drinks for about 1 to 2 hours and then head home, good way to unwind from the week.

The place we go we're regulars at (its also next door) and its quiet cause its really more of a resturant until the about 9pm.

I'd suggest something like that if you can, then its easy to duck out since its after work after one drink if you feel uncomfortable, but sometimes its good to push the edge of the comfort zone.

Then see if you like that, try the friday/saturday night thing with them, yes don't get blitzed even if they are, not unless they are very good non-work friends too (I have a couple of those).

The fact that they are asking you to go out with them means they don't see you as, ummmmm to be politically incorrect the office freak. And it would appear they enjoy your company so why not? 

One thing though, don't bring up work, or discuss something about work, like how are we going to get that sub routine to work with the xyz function.

If you like having friends or trying anything new whatsoever, go for it. I sure would.

There always seem to be a group of people who refuse to take any sort of risk whatsoever. They try to talk to their coworkers as little as possible, keep to themselves, and don't say much at work. They're boring as heck.

I could really expound upon the merits of making friends with the people you work with (if possible), but...I don't have time to write several paragraphs. :-)

as long as you actually like them sure no problem.

"That's assuming I keep my drinking under control."

Chuck, don't forget to attend your next AA meeting.

"You want to be a peer of your boss's peers. That's the secret to the CXO old boy's network. "

Agreed, good point and very true!


"Well, seriously, as for hanging out with coworkers, it's probably a good idea as long as you don't gossip or bad-mouth people. Keep positive and that should be fine. If there are only bad things to say, then spin it or keep quiet."

Yes, another excellent point.  Chiefs of companies like team players.  You have to remember that high up execs tend to get there by being this way, overly positive, and there's lots of data to back this up.  They are looked at with a great deal of respect because they build great teams and great teams win. (win = make more money).

I subscribe to the advise of Blair Singer.
http://www.blairsinger.com/

Blair is excellent and he has a very decorated background with marquee companies.  Might you consider renting a couple CDs of his from your local library.  I know this sounds really cheesy but he is that good.  I don't nomrally recommend motivational speakers but Blair is unique.  A friend sent me his material some time ago and I never forgot some of the points he makes on this very topic!

Hope this helps.

"You want to be a peer of your boss's peers. That's the secret to the CXO old boy's network."

I agree. I tend to talk to other girls which is away from the Engineering dept. My boss's peers aren't very exciting, but I have noticed I should make more small talk with them.

Opportunities are arising and they just don't know what to make of this hot, hot SW Engineer. I think they don't know how to relate to me, what to say, what's appropriate etc.

Hey, stop imagining me naked! Isn't that the only way guys can talk to a girl? Oops, I got that from one of my "girls are better than men" e-mails (we DON'T have to imagine you naked to talk to you).

Oh great, now I have bad images in my mind...

"Shouldn't that be:

Don't get sexually involved with coworkers that aren't really really hot."

You should avoid those relationships especially. The problem is when you are no longer involved. Dog's are usually clever enough to not poop next to the water bowl... you should be too.

>Only one rule as far as I am concerned -- don't get sexually involved with coworkers.

As they say, don't get your meat where you get your bread.

+++++ Duff

Nothing is quite as much fun as having to go to HR because your recently promoted ex is now in a position to give you a performance review (Work related.  Get your mind out of the gutter), all the team members have complained about the ex's lack of capabilities and favoritism to their new body buddy and your manager has just (6 months after it ended) found out  that the two of you had been doing more than working late together. 

PS I was covered because i had gone to HR 2 months earlier.  It was funny (as much as it could be ) to see the face of the  head of the HR department when i said, Yes i do see where it could be an issue.  That's why I brought it to your assistance's attention on such and such date.  Here is the documentation.

PPS.  Don't ever buy the line that it won't affect your future in the company if you are caught.  Some will be jealous, some will be morally indignant, some will think that Professionals don't do that.

Don't believe everything you read.

+1 for OneMist8k

If your single, have no where to go and are trying to make friends to expand your circle, sure go ahead, but don't be the talk of the office the next day! AND Don't fish off your own pier...BIG BIG NO NO, it will bite you in the butt!!!

I'm sure in general there's nothing wrong with hanging out with your co-workers - in fact getting to know them is probably good for teamwork and morale. However I think what might hurt your career is when you do 'unprofessional' things when you're out.

Leaving aside the whole sex thing, if you spend all your time with your work buddies complaining about your boss, or your co-workers, or how crap the company is, then you're going to have very little credibility if you are ever promoted so that you have to lead them. Likewise if you have obvious favourites in your team and you are promoted to be in charge of it then people will need to know that your favourites won't get special treatment. If they can't trust you to do that then you won't get promoted.

Instead of going out to a bar and well, drinking, why not invite them to join you in some sort of athletic activity?

I'm picturing bowling teams, softball teams, weekend bike rides and hiking trips, trips to trade shows and users' groups and other somewhat culturally neutral events.

For example, I discovered that a few of my co-workers are likewise into aviation and every year, we carpool out to the local Air Show, check out the planes on the tarmac, watch the flying demonstrations, come back to the office and talk about it around the water cooler for a couple of months.

As others have mentioned, the point really is to establish yourself as a stable, reliable, happy, somewhat predictable guy with hobbies. It's almost as good as having a spouse and kids for your career growth; companies are more willing to take a chance and hand you a plumb assignment if they know you have a reason to stick around for the long haul.

You don't have to get buddy buddy with them, and I definitely discourage sleeping with the hot chick no matter how tempting it gets, but showing that you're human and don't spend all week in a "work mode", is always a plus.

Life is short.  Sleep with your coworkers and be the talk of the office.  Get a psycho girlfriend who destroys everything when she flips out.  Your defense when things go bad will be, "she was hot."  If they don't immediately understand then you should be somewhere else.

It's none of the company's business what I do with my personal time.  If I happen to meet someone in the place where I'm most likely to meet someone that's up to me.

Office relationships may be unhealthy but so are cigarettes and cheeseburgers.  An office relationship, however, has a huge potential upside and is less sure to be truly bad for you.

Once they start paying me for the other 128 hours in the week they can start tasking me outside work.

I used to be sexually involved with a co-worker. Now we're married with children, so being sexually involved is no longer an issue.

We don't work together anymore, either.

"I've read where it isn't really a good career move to hang out with co-workers."

Where did you hear that?

+1 to Lance. I love it.

If any co-worker is your true friend, then go out with him/her. If others want to hang out fine. Do not go out with them just because they are co-workers. There is plenty of opportunity for camaraderie within the confines of the workplace. Going out with co-workers is not necessary.

It is illegal in all states of the eastern hemisphere

Lance

It shouldn't be the business of your work what you do in your spare time, until it affects your work. And sleeping with your work colleagues affects your work as soon as one of you is in a position of authority over the other.

Colleague p****d off because you slept with her once and didn't return her calls? That affects work. Married to your boss? That affects your work, and isn't allowed in most workplaces.

Of course if you are planning on living fast and dying young then career advancement probably doesn't worry you.

Never turn down an invitation, especially while you're new.  (Unless it's to go smoking, or something you're really going to regret.)

You'll learn more about the political landscape of your office away from the office, and the best way to get those conversations going is to go to lunch, or out for a pint after work.  You'll also hear about developments that you might otherwise miss in your little silo -- you'll learn about sales, marketing, other projects, etc., many of which you can use to your advantage.

"It shouldn't be the business of your work what you do in your spare time, until it affects your work."

However, work can always affect our private lives and this is normal and acceptable.