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Localizing the job board for India

The job board, jobs.joelonsoftware.com, has been rather successful. For the next upgrade, I was thinking about setting up a separate job board specifically focused on jobs in India, since there are so many Joel on Software readers there and I've only seen three jobs (in Bangalore) posted.

What should I do to localize the job board for India? Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or neither? How much should I charge? Right now the site only accepts credit cards... is there another payment method that would work better for India? Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas? Or just jobs actually in India? What other changes should I consider to make a more suitable product for the Indian market?
Joel Spolsky Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
There's a lot of job churn in India.  It will be interesting to see if your refund policy stands up as well in that culture with the volume.
OneMist8k
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
"Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas?"

I think that those would fit better under the current U.S. job board with perhaps a special flag or other indicator.  If you *do* add an India job board, keep it to jobs that are actually in India, I say.
R.M.
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
none of the above. you'll just be contributing to outsourcing.
Patrick From An Ibank Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Agreed.  The job market is very different in India and there is a sizable disconnect between the hiring practices/benefits here versus there.  Some things like free lunch, dinner, and transportation may be perceived as perks to some, but shackles to another.

However, I applaud your foresight in creating a separate site for the Indian jobs rather than have them appear on the same US Site.  (see the Javaranch.com job board for an example of how bad a mixed job board can turn out).
Karthik Hariharan Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Monsterindia format is a little different than www.monster.com. You may want to look at that.

My understanding is there is a ton of job hopping in India. So people there are probably really interested in pay. you may want to add a search for compensation and remember it should not be in dollars.

when I go to monsterindia, alot more of the jobs have salaries on them than in the US.

also you may want to include a filter for onsite in India and companies recruiter for overseas work.

find out what monsterindia charges and baseline your fees to that. Remember if the money is coming from India there is an exchange rate cost.
Contractor
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
> Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or
> neither?
does it make a difference as long as we can get there from your main site and bookmark it for future

> How much should I charge?
current fees seems fine unless you want to reduce it. In india trend is to charge as a percentage of compensation package which makes it complicated so stay away from it :)

> Right now the site only accepts credit cards...
> is there another payment method that would work better
> for India?
most of the online transactions done via credit card in india

> Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B
> visas? Or just jobs actually in India?
i think both, but number of jobs for H1B will be very few

also,
whats the kindof web traffic you get from india? you might not want to start unless you have good enough number of applicants available

most of the companies which will be posting will be US based or have some kindof presence in US

Overall, i think its a great idea and you must go ahead with it. Even if the job board is not that hot in the beginning but it will get you lots of new users from india which will eventually make it successful :)
Himanshu Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Only big companies can afford to sponsor H1B and they generally do it for their employees in India. Almost all small companies that sponsor H1B are contracting companies. What would help is if you come up with something that can filter out these contracting companies and list everyone else.

Credit cards should do, most people in India do them these days. ".in", ".co.in" you are wasting your time.
sarvesh Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
If you're thinking of localizing the job board in terms of the traditional language localization, I'd find an Indian to talk with about language suggestions. When visiting India one of the cultural shocks I had was the number of languages used. And apparently in some of the states there's still bad blood around from when Hindi was pushed as the "official" Indian language. If you're just focusing on New Dehli and Bangalore it might not be too bad. If you're thinking of covering more of India, you might need multiple localizations.

I'll also second the concern about churn.

You may also want a field for "shift time". It's not uncommon to have shift hours match the US. [I knew someone who was fired for trying to work two shifts -- each for a separate company.]

On the plus side, I was impressed that in Kerala state it seemed like every small town had a computer school. They're eager.
Glenn Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
+1 to Glenn. My impression is that when it comes to technology, English is the common language in India. There are schools and companies that prefer Hindu but such preferences tend to be regionalized and territorial. If you support just two or three languages, you run the risk of alienating an excluded province. So it's either all or none.

I'd also think it is easier and more economical to add more languages later as demand grows, than to support all 23 officially recognized languages now and scale back when demand fails to materialize.

With respect to H1Bs, I admit I'm surprised we're even considering the notion, especially in light of the recent debates regarding ethics in journalism and reviews. By allowing, or more accurately, setting aside specific indicators for H1B jobs, joelonsoftware is implying a stance on them.

As with languages, I would have suggested going slow and cautiously, and add explicit H1B search criteria if there is an obvious demand for them.
TheDavid
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
howdypartner.com?

;)
Anon for this one...
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Credit cards are not a problem as long as your credit card clearing house understands that these are from India and not fraudulent. My US cards often get denied in India until I call up the company and tell them its okay and many of Indian friends' cards get denied on US .com sites that don't explicitly allow for those.

.co.in is probably the way to go but it doesn't particularly matter. Everyone is just as used to .com or something of that sort. Just as a reference point, www.google.com in India redirects to www.google.co.in.

Localizing to India is a great idea IMO. I think the job market there is different enough that it requires a different board (or at least a different virtual space) than the US job board.

Finally, the India board should be for jobs *in* India not for people *from* India. The latter can apply to whatever jobs they want in any country depending upon where they are and whether the company sponsors visas and so on.
Rushabh Doshi Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
@sarvesh: There is a job market in the US for contracting companies that only hire H1Bs. They sponsor for green cards, but pay way less than other places. They also require H1Bs to move at their own expense from job to job. I know people who have gone from Iowa to Northern Virginia and paid for the move.

so beware... these companies are scum. I know someone who gets calls every week from companies in India. This person is working on an MBA. They get her name off of the school website. They are looking for IT people who are on student visas and desperate to stay in the US. They only call people with Indian names. They offer her less than she made entry level with no experience.

so yes joel should filter these companies out. They are sleaze bags. Also, you need to include a section for companies that require H1Bs to sign contracts stating that if they leave they owe a fine. Thomson Financial requires H1Bs to agree to pay $20,000 if they quit before getting a green card.
someone
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Separate job board for India is an excellent Idea. In my opinion, it should ONLY include jobs in India (not those in US).

"co.in" is a good idea.
Credit cards is widely used in India.

A separate search flag for H1Bs sponsoring companies (like "someone" suggested) is a good idea but you should NOT accept postings from 'consulting companies'.
sri
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
I think it is a good idea.
However, how many companies in India know about joelonsoftware? Even if they know, how many people in IT know about joelonsoftware?

Take care of this.
Kalpesh Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
Credit cards must do fine. I'm able to buy books from Amazon.com using my Visa credit card from Citibank. That will be the easiest way to transfer money. As lot of individuals use them, it should be fine with companies.

Since India is growing you can actually charge more but may be alter the terms. I'm not sure if it's what's happening but consultants (that's the way placement agencies are referred to here) charge companies around a month's pay but he gets paid part initially and the other part if the resource hired stays at least 6 months. I wouldn't be surprised if it totals to $1000 - $350 initially and $650 at the end of the 6 months for someone, say, with around 5 years of experience. This is for jobs just in India. It's because as OneMist8k said above about the high attrition rate.

Basically, if there's some assurance that a developer will not use their company (includes big companies like IBM, Infosys, etc)  a stop gap while finding one with a bigger pay packet, the HR will be very grateful to you.

If you are able to check more about the way consultants are getting paid for placing people, you may find it useful to modify the way you charge - more for more experienced people and less for less.
Senthilnathan N.S. Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
I must say I am quite excited at the fact that you want to setup a job listings site only for India.

Like some people said, two categories for India jobs and USA H1B visas sounds great. And I agree with a previous reply, there should be someway to filter against consultants (the type that offers H1-B visas, take you to the USA and give you shitty salaries).

Credit cards will work here, however instead of Master Card its Maestro. Visa and Amex cards are also used by many. Alternatively many banks lets us do online payments. That might be simpler for some.
Arun Rama Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
>> Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas?
Most of the companies I know who sponsor H1B’s are body shops. (Except Microsoft and Oracle but not Google or IBM). The body shops, from my experience don’t even score a single point on Joel Test.
Once you start catering to US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas and don’t care about JoelTest scores, it will be interesting to see how this unique job-board will live up to its present reputation.

>>Or just jobs actually in India?
Sounds like a good idea. Also, something worth considering is having a category for the people who are willing to relocate to India.

>>What other changes should I consider to make a more suitable product for the Indian market?
Most candidates tend to look for jobs in their own city (Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Mumbai, Delhi etc). Relocating is not easy from one city to another because of language barriers etc.
SkS Send private email
Monday, March 26, 2007
 
 
If someone wants to hire /post their requirements specifically catering to the Indian workforce , well then thats their choice is'nt it . Obviously there are no obligations to post or read the section ,unless you WANT to.

Moving on...

I guess posting at a separate section will be a interesting experience and over time we'll get to know how viable it is . It will be an option ,none the less .

Honestly , I expect more INDIAN companies posting ; trying to fill the local requirements or perhaps inviting senior personnel who want to work in Indian companies abroad or in India itself.


Keep Clicking,
Bhasker V Kode
Bhasker V Kode Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Greetings from IntelliBitz Technologies, Chennai - India.

We are a brand new technology company involved in various initiatives in providing enterprise technology solutions for the global market.

Here's our requirements:

1. Hiring Candidates
a) from India, for India.
        We need talented developers to work on our product development and consulting. We need developers who are familiar with joelonsoftware and have read various articles of him. The point is, skilled productive passionate people.

b) from Outside India, for India.
        We need to fill various positions targetted for people outside India. The objective is to find people like Joel(only an example) to be part of my orgainization. These are not regular people but folks who can take high risks to realize their ambition.

2. Placing Candidates
a) from India, Outside India (H1B or ...)
          We also can fill in positions outside India as part of our consuting efforts.

Given the requirements above,

1. Localization in terms of job positions are fine, but not in terms of language (scary that people think we need an Hindi, Tamil, Telugu board :( We in India are doing fine with English, thanks.

2. A board for jobs exclusively in India (Everyone is welcome to apply)
 This board must also cater
  2.1 Indians applying through H1B.
  2.2 People outside India, applying for Indian jobs.

Credit cards are fine.

I guarantee it would be hugely successful in terms of volume, but i cannot say the same in terms of substance.

Thanks Joel, for thinking about us.
Muthu Ramadoss Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Regarding the visa sponsorship issue, I would suggest allowing interested parties to search for H1B – rather than enabling companies to target overseas workers.  This may be an effective way to maintain posting integrity.

One possible implementation:
1.  A checkmark on your ‘post a job’ page for ‘will sponsor H1B’
2.  Enhancements to your search page to allow users to find those jobs
3.  An unobtrusive icon (perhaps next to the location column) indicating H1B friendliness.

Note that it is imperative that the job listing show the actual location of the job to retain the job board’s credibility.


As for further localization of the listings:  One of the appealing aspects to the existing format is the simplicity and single-page format.  Segregation of listings in India would require a (perhaps undesirable) shift in this functionality.

Rather than hosting a separate domain for jobs in India, I would suggest enhancing your current localization (such as it is):
1.  Break the location column into separate ‘city’, ‘state/province’, and ‘country’ columns (sortable, of course)
2.  Copy your existing ‘sCountryCode1’ control to the front page, and make the default ‘worldwide’
3.  Make it clear to the user what they are not seeing:  change the job headings to read something along the lines of “<job_category> (<x> jobs in <country>, <y> jobs filtered)”

If you decide to go with a separate TLD, consider simply changing the default search options, and pointing it to the same code base as the existing job board.  This will achieve the desired effect while achieving the desired localization effect – and have the added benefit of encouraging browsing of non-India listings.
Greg Chabra Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Joel,
I have been waiting for this from quite sometime. I have been following stats on your job board which has been declining from 110s to 60s to now 46. So I was hesitant to post any jobs and $350 is quite a huge sum for startups like me.

The great thing about your jobsite is the quality of the people who would apply and for these kind of people I think the type of work matters most. I can also go to monster if I love sifting through mountains of resumes.

Just the simple fact that there is a job site for india will definitely attract more attention and posts. IMO Everything else can remain the same as the current job board except for three things -
1. Search/Posting based on locations and not just India (i.e. Bangalore, Hyderabad and so on)
2. Size of the company and the pay matter to most here. So I guess those should be a part of the posting.

And I agree with all those who think that H1's should not be included here. The jobs should be located within India. If you do this, you can count me in as a customer.

Regards,
Srini
Srinivas Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I have to agree with Muthu above. Though there are several regional languages, IT personnel are usually required to have a good command over the English language. In our company it is one of the criteria we use to grade new applicants.

I guess when you're writing code in 'English' it makes sense that they're able to think clearly in English. Please don't go for localizations in regional languages, we're doing quite well with English, thank you.
Thamil Selvan Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
1. The domain doesn't matter
2. Credit card transactions should be ok.
3. It might be a pretty good idea to include companies willing to sponsor H1B visas. This is because not many existing channels in India provide that kind of info.
Sanjay Goel Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
>Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or neither?

Maybe both?
Daniel Larsson
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
You do NOT need to have the Job Board in any language other than English.

99.99 % of the Jobs are going to involve an Enlish speaking/reading person.

Also, 99.99% of your Indian Readers are reading JoelOnSoftware in English!
Pratik Stephen Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I would like to see Jobs that are 'in' India on the separate job-board.

Please do not allow postings of 'on-site' jobs that are outside India.

There are a lot of quality jobs in India. I hope the kind of postings that will be on the board will be of high quality, just like the posting on the U.S portal.

Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I don't think you should dilute your brand by having an extra domain name.  You could detect the browser language to offer Indian services or use some sort of geo-ip service to correctly place people to serve your specific content.  Where you planning to serve the content in a specific Indian language?
Stewart Robinson Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Hats off joel on your forsight for coming up with this.I will wait for the site. I think you should put both the H1-B jobs and India specific jobs.The illustration of India specific jobs should be helpful for expats and who is willing to relocate to India.
Shailendra Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Wow, Joel, thats an idea! Although there are a million job sites focussed on Indian jobs, I suppose something like your site which is visited by above average readers (among them, avid readers like yours truly, from India) would, I suppose, attract some quality job postings as well. I don't really find the idea of posting my resume on monster India very appealing...

As for the domain, how about in.jobs.joelonsoftware.com  - this way, the site would retain your trademark (as i see it) "joelonsoftware.com"

PS: I did apply to some of the interesting jobs on your main site, but things didn't work out. The job listings should specify whether they are interested in international hiring.
Jang Vijay Singh Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Don't.

1) The kind of jobs that require/prefer advertising does not meet the general JoS readership profile.

2) In India, the more the middle men, the shorter the route.

3) Not many ISVs at all here. The large one's won't even look at JoS as an approvable hiring platform.

4) A shitload of entry level jobs is where the money is. Those won't be posted here.

5) Did I warn you about the middle man (aka outsoursing contractors)? Parent orgs. An example is already available in this thread.
A. Y. Mous Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
And what about the russian board? It also could have a grate potential.
Andrew Dashin Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
"Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or neither?"

I think you should stick to jobs.joelonsoftware.com as it has acquired a certain amount of popularity here (India). You might think of listing all jobs under jobs.joelonsoftware.com/india

As suggested by one of the above readers, search by renumeration would be helpful.

"How much should I charge? Right now the site only accepts credit cards... is there another payment method that would work better for India?"

An amount of INR 20,000/- per job listing should be enough to keep away the frivolous job agencies. Credit cards are the most popular mode of online payment here and you should not need any other mode. However, do make sure that you are have an Indian merchant account with anyone of the banks. Transactions in foreign currency is a little cumbersome here.

"Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas? Or just jobs actually in India?"

I think you should allow H1B listings. A lot on Indian developers get caught in the clutches of body shoppers and end up with meagerly paid jobs in US with all documents being held by the body shoppers. Listing US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas will help in eliminating the need of these body shoppers.
Sourav Sipani
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
How about localizing the jobs board by using the following using two aliases in front of your domain name. Like so:

us.jobs.joelonsoftware.com
in.jobs.joelonsoftware.com
ru.jobs.joelonsoftware.com

and so on.
John K Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
> I'd find an Indian to talk with about language suggestions

Any Indian who's able to do tech jobs will be quite fluent in English, so this is pretty much a non-issue. Even Indian job websites don't have language specific material!
Srikanth
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I was at one time thinking of setting up my own get-a-programming-job type of firm (and conducting its affairs part time) that identified only good companies and helped them find only good programmers. I booked a domain (http://www.rentonegeek.com), wrote up a few Web pages and everything one night and then, I put the idea through my company to ask them if I would be in voilation of any of their policies in doing so and they stopped me. So, I stopped.

Here're a few things I learnt.

The Indian job market is at its peak. It has been so for some years, it will remain so for more years. This business is easy money. Because of the low barrier to entry, it has incompetent people running it. This has earned it a callous reputation. It is mostly being run by people who know only how to check email and could not do better at finding a job themselves. They are now helping other people find jobs. So, there's no looking at the quality of people. There's just a few parameters to look at: number of years of experience being the main one, and the next thing is the roudiness of the person seeking the job. If the job whore can pick up a few offers at a time and bully the clueless mega corporations, the consultant will like him very much and will send him more email offers they have from other clueless companies. The guy might otherwise be a complete idiot. But out of all these clueless people, the most clueless will still be the consultant. Because he won't know what nuisance is he is propogating. He will not know whether the candidate is good or not or if the company itself is a hell-hole full of incompetent hiring managers. He will be thinking he is a part of a fantastic "happening and revolutionary IT business which changes the way the world looks at itself on an everyday basis". He will be assuming that the company is rocket making company and the candidate is so intelligent that he will build robots when he gets hired.

For high position jobs, the ugliness of the candidate matters a lot provided he has unmatchable experience, like, 24 years of experience coding Java (even if Java hasn't existed for more than 12 years. And when you ask him what he coded he will stop at, "select * from...and the trial balances never matched. We used to sit at the office the whole night when I was a tiny worthless programmer like you."). He has to look like an Uncle. He must have grey hair, or must preferrably be bald, must be little overweight, must have a huge ego, must speak bad English and he must insult whoever is sitting in front of him. All of this is implicit but it exists because we see it all the time.

The "range" (and not the average/median) of Indian yearly salaries in metropolitan areas such as Delhi, Noida, Bangalore, Gurgaon, Mumbai and Chennai are:

a) Fresher INR 84,000 to INR 2,40,000

b) 1 yr to 3 yrs experience: INR 1,50,000 to 5,00,000

c) 3 yrs to 5 yrs experience INR 2,20,000 to 8,75,000

d) 5 yrs to 8 yrs experience INR 6,00,000 to INR 14,00,000

e) 8 yrs and 15 yrs experience INR

f) 15 yrs and above: The sky is the limit. Some people earn as much as INR 1 crore (INR 10 million)


Even though it sounds like a preposterous thing to have a rule like this, the average salary obeys the rule, "1.75 times the number of years of experience". So if Ravi has 4.5 years of experience, he will get about 7,00,000 INR from a mega corporation (where Ravi might just relax and do very little or absolutely nothing for many many years), about 8,00,000 from a medium sized company (where Ravi will do something and sometimes many things all at once) and about 3,00,000 at a six-person-sweatshop-that-runs-on-the-first-floor-just-above-the-local-sweetmeat-shop where he will bust his ass.

The consultants work on a commission basis. The asking is normally 1 month's salary of the candidate. Formally, it is:

a) 8.33% of the candidate's salary plus 12.5% surcharge towards the local sales tax, if the candidate gets hired for an amount upto INR 6,00,000 per year

Or

b) 12%-15% of the candidate's salary plus a 12.5% surcharge towards the local sales tax, if the candidate gets a hire amount than INR 6,00,000 per year


Most consultants get their commission after the candidate has completed 3 months with the company. Some of them have good relations with the HR people of the hiring company and they get it in 1 month's time.

The job websites such as Monster.com, JobsAhead.com, Naukari.com etc. charge anywhere between INR 20,000 a year to INR 5,00,000 a year for their services. The lower the fee, the less the number of concurrent logins they offer. So, the small companies pick up the low-fee accounts and the larges ones go for the many-concurrent-logins account.


Some things to be careful about:
=========================
1) .co.in makes it read and sound more complicated. It doesn't matter too much but if you should lean towards one, it should be the less complicated sounding one (all things such as economics remaining same).
2) How much should I charge?
Your current £350 works out to INR 15186.5, which is a paltry sum compared to what the consultants already earn from one candidate. However, it compares well with the job websites. Because of your credibility, you should be able to keep the same rate and no one will feel a thing because it works out in the middle of the job sites and consultants rate, and you're far from being a run-of-the-mill business.

3) Because the market is buoyant, some Indian job ads ask for more than one programmer in the same advert. Sometimes, they also publicize more than a single position in one ad. Make sure they put one single advert for a single person for a single position so that you don't run at a loss.

4) Beware of some H1B sponsoring companies. They say they sponsor H1B VISA's but they won't tell you "how" they sponsor it. Some of the companies ask the candidate to deposit upto USD 4,000 to get the VISA. They tell the candidates that the amount is refundable. Some companies refund part of the money. Some of them have disappeared. There are always gotchas.

5) Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas? Or just jobs actually in India?
Offer jobs any which ways. Indian programmers are very keen to go onsite and will like jobs that send them to a foreign country because of the money/currency difference. So offer positions from Indian companies offering positions in India and the US, as well as US companies willing to hire from India.

Basically, there are not many companies in India like the ones you'd find in the US, or like the ones you talk about (like FogCreek. There's only a few, like ThoughtWorks and they already use the main jobs board) and you might make money but find the experience disappointing.

However, it will be very nice for some good developers working in India because they will get to find companies that score good on the Joel Test (something that must be very rare in India).
Sathyaish Chakravarthy Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
> We need talented developers to work on our product development and consulting. We need developers who are familiar with joelonsoftware and have read various articles of him. The point is, skilled productive passionate people.


Muthu person,

I have almost 4 years experience with joelonsoftware. Are you hiring people who must know how to read the joelonsoftware technology and the other the articles the by the him?
4 yrs experience with joelonsoftware Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
There are quite a lot of job portals in India already (Monster, naukri, timesjob, etc, etc). There is fierce competition between all the major players. These firms advertise aggressively on TV, News papers, FM stations and so on and have already captured the “mass” segment’s mind share.

The number of Indian Joel readers may be significant. But most of your readers from India are niche segment. Even though I work for a premier MNC in India, I hardly find people within my own org who is a regular JoelOnSoftware reader. So you will again have a tough time to capture the mind share. I saw one of the posts mentioning that you will get tons of volumes – I seriously doubt it. 

Based on the above two reasons, I don’t think it’s worthwhile for you to enter an already saturated market.
YouKnowWho Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Stongly recommend to localize the job board for Chinese!
Jacky
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
> Stongly recommend to localize the job board for Chinese!

Yesssss.
jingalala jingalala ™ Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
>What should I do to localize the job board for India?

>Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or neither?
.in will help

>How much should I charge? Right now the site only accepts credit cards... is there another payment method that would work better for India?
credit cards are an accepted payments in india, so can go with ti.

>Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas? Or just jobs actually in India?
Please keep it jobs in India, else I am sure it will be cluttered.
Ramjee Ganti Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
To people in India: Aren't people begging you to go work for them? I heard the average raise is 15%/year or more.

Also, how do you get a visa to work in India. I heard its very hard. Would I be an H1B in India or could I switch employers and job hop?
Contractor
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I strongly disagree with YouKnowWho about the other job sites. To make a long story short, they're all shit. Fact of the matter is, in the Indian IT industry, despite all the hype, good software jobs - by which I mean three things (a) challenging work (b) good work environment (c) decent pay - are very very hard to find. Trust me, you won't find a half decent jobs/candidates on Monster, or naukri or whereever. This is from first hand experience, our company signed up for resume's from monster, and we got a big pile of throughly useless resumes. In fact, this is not restricted to just online job boards - we also advertised in a B'lore newspaper and we got 20,000 resumes. The number actually called up for interviews after we sorted them was less than twenty.

So, the Joel job board for India is a super super idea! I really appreciate this! Thanks! :-)
WhyDoYouCare? Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Just to say that if you do end up having a flag for 'will sponsor H1B', don't forget to phrase it in a country-neutral way! i.e. NOT 'H1B'. Not all your postings on the regular board are in the US, and all have their own terminology when it comes to immigration and work permits.
DJ Clayworth
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
+1000 FOR WhyDoYouCare

MAN, you're not the one who said :

"The great software developers, indeed, the best people in every field, are quite simply never on the market."

So, Why do you want to get in this business if all the good developers are busy working:-)

Are you going to make market for "Bad Developers":-)

My advice, focus on your business and forget it.

You want to find good developers??? Go to
http://www.computerjobs.com
Tired of new ideas
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
A listing of job sites in India is available at http://indiaupcoming.com/tag/jobs
Neeraj Kumar Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
@tired:

computerjobs has a handful of companies advertising jobs. mostly temp agencies. Most of it is employee temp jobs.

i avoid it.

in the government contracting business the best people are always on the market, becuase we know every job is a temp job and we just want more money.
Contractor
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I fail to understand how just tweaking the domain name of a site will get you more advertisers. Right now a lot of Indians are already reading your site. I'm sure most of them will only want to work in "geek-friendly" companies. The profile of these companies (they might generally be small and choosy about hiring people) they probably only hire references because of which you probably don't seem to be attracting a lot of job posts.

I don't see any of your ideas really drawing these posts and am not sure about what will really work.

Also, how come I didn't see many comments from the actual advertisers in India? That makes me think these folks probably don't read JOS.
Shashi Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
In run-of-the-mill IT companies in India, the responsibility of getting job ads to newspapers is within the HR. So, yes, HR is not reading this board.

However, the people/teams where the needs arise *are* certainly reading this board.
Sathyaish Chakravarthy Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
---:What should I do to localize the job board for India?"----
Remember to leave a space before all commas and full stops . :)
Stephen Jones Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I'd make sure you register the indian domain name before somebody else takes it; might consider doing the same for Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Thailand as well.
Stephen Jones Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
At the moment I'm not using the job board from 'either end'. I would consider doing so if it segmented as a minimum USA / UK / Europe / Australia / Anything else. I agree with the following:

"How about localizing the jobs board by using the following using two aliases in front of your domain name. Like so:

us.jobs.joelonsoftware.com"

The segmentation should be according to the location of where the job is. Then you can add sub-domains as time goes on.

Thanks, Bill Rayer
William Rayer Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I agree (strongly) with Greg Chabra's suggestion to split the current 'location' column.  If you decide to keep everything on one page then 'country', 'state/province' and 'city'; if you go with separate pages/domains then just the latter two.

I've been wishing for exactly this ever since the job board went up, long before the question of localizing by country arose.
Mike C Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
1.  "What should I do to localize the job board for India? Should I use jobs.joelonsoftware.in or .co.in? Or neither?"

I think the better was will be to make a link of Indian jobs in your regular job site using the seperate link like jobsinindia.joelonsoftware.com

This will guarantee that regular viewers of your blog can find it from your regular blog.

2, "How much should I charge? Right now the site only accepts credit cards... is there another payment method that would work better for India?"

What do you want to charge for?  Is it to employers or employees?  I would suggest that wiring of money into your bank account can work too.

3.  Should I allow US employers willing to sponsor H1B visas? Or just jobs actually in India?

Yes, you should allow the companies willing to sponsor Indians in US too.  It will be a better incentive and you can charge on a percentage basis like a consultant.

4. What other changes should I consider to make a more suitable product for the Indian market?

I don't think you need any other significant changes.
Ricky Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
Wow, I see the new domain up & running.
This will help lots of smart folks in software to make a better choice for the next company to work at.

Cheers
Kalpesh
Kalpesh Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
I think that’s a great idea. Especially posting H1b ads will be good thing for developers back in India. I agree that good developers are busy doing fun and interesting stuff but if you kinda a out of fun stuff to do in your current job you do check out job sites and I hope joel job board will help to get ride of all the noise.
Nilanjan Raychaudhuri Send private email
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
 
 
It would be interesting to see how this board performs over the next six months.
YouKnowWho Send private email
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
 
 
India specific site seems to be a good idea, maybe jobs.joelonsoftware.in might be a good option.

The reason you don't see many india specific postings are:
1. Most companies use headhunters to find the right candidates for you, and the headhunters here (in India) tend to be very reluctant to post information on their clients.
2. In most companies, the HR department tends to be responsible for finding employees, and while joelonsoftware is well known amongst the developers, it is not so among the non-developers.
3. USD 350 is a lot more than what you pay (on average) for a job placement on any indian job board. Probbaly USD200 would be a better bet, at least initially.

Credit cards should be fine, USD350 is probably a lot higher than what people are used to paying for an ad placement (it's still lower than what you pay the headhunters).

I also think that letting the ad run for a month (30) days as against the current 21 days would be a better option.

The baord should target the indian employees (not necessarily the indian employers), this means you can allow companies willing to sponsor H1B

--
Am loving my job. Not surfing the Joel on Software Job Board :)
Sajith M Send private email
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
 
 
Hi Joel,

I have been a long timer reader of your blog. However, this is the first time I am posting a comment :)

And well, this not directly related to your post about job board, but about unicode and localization.

On your question about localizing the job board, many people replied with a blunt answer that English is fine with them.

Here are two of the comments:

"Localization in terms of job positions are fine, but not in terms of language (scary that people think we need an Hindi, Tamil, Telugu board :( We in India are doing fine with English, thanks."

"99.99 % of the Jobs are going to involve an Enlish speaking/reading person."

Well, you see joel, the problem is that most Indians are still grossly unaware about unicode. Prior to windows 2000, there was no way one could use a PC in any Indian language. Unlike languages like Chinese, Japanese, there was no separate code pages for languages like Hindi.

Windows 2000 was the first operating system which had excellent support for Hindi. It was the fist OS by Microsoft, which had proper layout engine for displaying complex languages. ( languages like Hindi are unicode only, they dont have code pages )

However, people still preffered working in english because there was no easy to use key-board layout for writing in Hindi. Altough Inscript keyboard layout is availaible on almost every OS, it was still difficut for most people to memorize all the keys.

However, when Microsoft released the Indic IME, things stared to change. Indic IME was the first tool that allowed people to write in Hindi and other regional languages. And this was the first time that people started writing in there own languages.

And things are changing pretty fast on blogosphere. You can now find a lot of blog in Indian languages.

And a few of companies are now trying to experiment with regional langage contents too:

http://in.hindi.yahoo.com/
http://content.msn.co.in/hindi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/

and even the all mighty google is now offering services in Hindi. Check out these links:

google news in hindi:
http://news.google.com/news?ned=hi_in
http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Google_Launches_Services_in_Hindi/551-79811-643.html

Watching the growing number of hindi bloggers, Google's blogger service is now offering a tool to write in hindi, without installing Indic IME:

http://www.bhashaindia.com/downloadsV2/Category.aspx?ID=8
http://www.jitu.info/merapanna/?p=684

Joel, compared to TV and Mobile, percentage of people using internet is very low in India. Unlike the US, where 2/3rd of the populations is online, only 4% of Indian population is online. And less than 1% ( around .5 % ) people are using broadband.

And it's not because of availaibility. You can easily get a 2mb DSL link in big cities and small towns. Dialup and CDMA2000 is virtually everywhere.

Language barrier is the number one reason for this. However, things are changing pretty fast. Regional services are getting support from TV and radio services. I hope that some day Indians will be hooked to the Internet the same way they are hooked to TV and mobile :)

As far localization of your job board is concerned, i think curently you can start the board in
English and it wont hurt you because the 4% of Indians, that are online, can read/write "Engrish" to some extent. :)

however, localizing the language file of your board script aint gonna hurt you either ;)
gautam madeshia Send private email
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
 
 
Joel, I hesitated to comment yesterday, but after you've got your Indian site up and running in one day, I'm sure my (very low) estimate for the localization cost was adequate. You also tuned the pricing level to local conditions -- very smart.

Then, yes, I second Andrew above regarding the Russian version. Logistical issues, like credit cards etc., are more or less the same as for India -- make sure your payment provider is happy with Russian credit cards and just don't bother translating anything from English.

Nevertheless, your job board software really should support non-English resumes and job postings. As you were so ardently teaching us all the joys of Unicode some time ago, I presume this is technically not a problem. I'm not sure however if you can allow non-English contents -- there can be some moderation etc. issues which require a human staff member knowing the corresponding language.

The reason non-English content is important is that your board can serve local job market in, say, Russia. I'm not sure about India, but in Russia we have a growing demand for IT people from local companies (banks, oil, manufacturing etc.), which these days are able to successfully compete with outsourcing. Actually, my feeling is that Russia is approaching a turning point in local vs. outsourcing IT jobs (while both segments are still growing). And local companies don't have any requirements for English (besides the bare basics of being able to read MSDN etc.). I'm more concerned about corporate recruiters here than about candidates, because most good IT candidates usually have a decent level of English.

One final note. Whois tells me that joelonsoftware.ru is taken by some bloody squatter named Alexander Tkachev. Don't let this stop you. I agree with some colleague above that you should have it all under your .com domain.
Dmitry Stillermann Send private email
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
 
 
----"Language barrier is the number one reason for this."------

I think cost is a much more important reason for the non-take-up of Internet in India. It costs a load more to connect to the Internet in India than it does in the developed world and the costs are much greater. When I am in Lanka my dial-up bill for a month is around &70, which is what I pay for three months broadband elsewhere. Sure, broadband would be cheaper in Lanka, but its restricted to the capital and a very few other telephone exchanges.

And how much use is an internet connection to the average middle class Indian (let alone the average Indian who doesn't even have a PC, a telephone line, and often not an electrical connection)? Where they can see the point, and where the hardware is affordable, then Indians will flock to new technology; look at the mobile phone market.

With regards to an IT job board it is pointless taking resumes for India in languages other than English. The driving force behind IT is in the non-Hindi speaking parts of the country; the situation is very different from that in Continental Europe.
Stephen Jones Send private email
Thursday, March 29, 2007
 
 

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