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Is Joel proud of being ignorant?

Squeak doesn't have a big ecosystem?

Right out of the box you get all you need for networking, XML/web services, regexes (you also get tons of multimedia stuff but that's irrelevant here). Install a few packages and you have an embedded web server, database access, and a web framework of your choice. Seaside is industrial-strength and production-ready; the code you write to use it is absolutely beautiful and amazingly explicit. You have Monticello for version control and a development environment that completely obliterates Eclipse, Emacs, TextMate, etc etc in a profound way. What's missing, you troll?

I have to wonder: are you proud of developing your software in a giant manifestation of Greenspun's Tenth Rule that you call Wasabi, Joel? To really complete things, add a multiple dispatch object system, a macro system that works at the abstract syntax level, incremental compilation, and native code generation. Er, maybe you'd be better off switching to OCaml or Haskell for that.
greenspun is rolling in his helicopter
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
Rule #1 of software: Never marry your <insert current favorite language, IDE, database, web server, whatever here>
anon
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
I think he was referring to the number of people actually using the language, rather than the APIs, bells, or whistles that come with it.

The are many (scrillions?) of people using .NET, J2EE, and PHP for web applications.  This means you get a very broad user base for support, code samples, and the peace of mind that at least a few mission critical, bet-the-company-on-it apps have been written in that language.

Squeak doesn't have that reputation, to my knowledge.  Thus, for a stable, boring, enterprise, really really important app, it may not be the best idea to go with squeak.
thinker
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
does all discussion of languages and environments have to obey the every beck and call of Fortune 100 corporations?

if you want to erect a shrine around mediocrity and stupidity, fine, but don't expect young bucks like me to follow you conservative dinosaur old farts off the cliff.
greenspun is rolling in his helicopter
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
>does all discussion of languages and environments have to obey the every beck and call of Fortune 100 corporations?

I think you need to go back and read what Joel actually wrote. You also need to lose some of the defensiveness you've built about your pet language.
Dennis Forbes Send private email
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
> does all discussion of languages and environments have to obey the every beck and call of Fortune 100 corporations?

No all discussion doesn't.

But if you are measuring the size of the "ecosystem" then discussion is about the number of developers, books, samples, third party tools and librarys, experience based in fortune 1000 companies, etc.

And joel was measuring the size of the ecosystem.

> Squeak doesn't have a big ecosystem?

Should read "Squeak doesn't have a big ecosystem."

What what was your point again (other than bristling because your favorite language isn't Joel's choice) ?
Sunil Tanna
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
>>does all discussion of languages and environments have to obey the every beck and call of Fortune 100 corporations?

if you want to erect a shrine around mediocrity and stupidity, fine, but don't expect young bucks like me to follow you conservative dinosaur old farts off the cliff.<<

The sad truth is that mediocrity and stupidity can pay very well. That mattered less to me when I was a young buck. Not that I'm an old buck, but I'm older.

And if I had a nickel for everytime some young buck thought he wasn't going to follow old farts off a cliff, well, I'd be drinking a mai tai on a beach somewhere intead of being in an office talking on a message board. What cliff is that, anyway?

Those old farts, like those old wives, seem to know a thing or two. One day you'll realize that. By then you'll be an old fart and shaking your head at all the young bucks.

I also think somebody else didn't get the fact that the Wasabi thing was a joke.
Bart Park
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
How many squeak developers are out there for hire?
Dino Send private email
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
"if you want to erect a shrine around mediocrity and stupidity, fine, but don't expect young bucks like me to follow you conservative dinosaur old farts off the cliff."

Ah, another generation of foolish naive software developers who have all the answers.

I bet you bought the "Getting Real" book and think that that "scale later" is a great idea and "meetings are useless" (or whatever it says).

The thing is that plenty of developers have thought this - that the older programmers were dinosaurs and that the new guys had the answer. When I was 21, so did I. And I was wrong too.

It doesn't matter whether you are "Fortune 100" or not. Software needs an ecosystem. If you run a company you want the software built so that if your developers leave, die or whatever, you have less of a struggle to replace them.

Listen to some older voices. Many of them have walked the walk and can teach you a lot.
Tim Almond Send private email
Friday, September 01, 2006
 
 
"How many squeak developers are out there for hire?"

Three. And, amazingly enough, they're all available. <g>
KenW
Tuesday, September 05, 2006
 
 

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