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* The Business of Software

We're going to be interviewing soon someone from the developer relations group working on OpenSocial about that technology, Google App Engine and what else Google can do for a startup for the Startup Success Podcast (http://startuppodcast.wordpress.com/).

Got any questions?

Is GoogleCheckout ever going to be a credible alternative to PayPal? After a shaky start the nothing seems to have got any better - the price just went up. In particular, are they ever going to add multi-currency support (e.g. so I can set prices in $, £ and Euro) and why don't they allow us to turn off the email anonymisation option (which is a royal pain for vendors).

The main issue I see for the App Engine is vendor lockup. Right now I have my apps on Amazon. It wouldn't be a huge deal to migrate to a different provider since we're using standard Linux and standard software tools on top of EC2 and S3.

AFAIK Google App Engine is 100% proprietary. If I develop for it, there's no way to move away. That's a scary idea for a startup or any business, for that matter.

It isn't 100% proprietary, Dror.  It's based on CGI which is a standard understood by every web server in existence and the App Engine docs tell you how to run WSGI on top of this so, in theory, it's compatible with pretty much all of the popular Python web frameworks.  Django support is explicitly talked about and Web2py mentions support on their site.  On the other hand, the data engine that App Engine forces you to use is 90% proprietary (I give it 10% for looking a little like a typical database engine and having a SELECT statement that looks like SQL).  If you're developing using an MVC framework, your templates, controllers, etc. should be pretty much 100% portable between App Engine and some different server.  On the other hand, the backend of your data model will have to be largely recoded to move between App Engine and something else.

My biggest concern with App Engine is the fear that Google can arbitrarily shut down my site at any given time with no recourse (as they have done with Adsense accounts and so on).  Granted, any web host can shut you down with no recourse but Google has a history of doing this with other services that they offer and they also offer a variety of services that they might consider you a competitor of and shut you down because of that.  And at that point, you run into the problem with the proprietary datastore.  At least with some other host, I can take a backup of the database and move it to a new host.  With App Engine, it isn't clear to me how easy it would be to regularly backup the data or to move it to another system if you can get a hold of the backup. 

So my question would be, why would I consider using App Engine, no matter how great it is technically or costwise, when Google can arbitrarily shut me down with no recourse and with my data locked away in a proprietary system?

Technically, Google App Engine is a really attractive platform for applications that need to scale.  But I have concerns about the Terms and Conditions.

The Google App Engine Program Policies (http://code.google.com/appengine/program_policies.html) are clear that neither an application running on App Engine, *nor the end users of that application*, can use it for prohibited actions such as the promotion of illegal activities, email spam, pyramid schemes, content that is harmful to minors, impersonation of another person, and transmission of another's intellectual property.

The Program Policies also prohibit a Google App Engine application from displaying and/or processing copyright-infringing content, obscene content, and "pages comprising primarily of advertising".

Can application developers feel safe building businesses on top of Google App Engine if those businesses revolve around user-generated content that the business can never fully control?

Forgetting illegal activities for a moment, what happens if I build a Google App Engine application that's used by millions of users, and a proportion of those users decide to use it for *spammy* purposes (i.e. attempting to manipulate Google's search-engine rankings)?

Will Google shut my application down?

How stringently will businesses built on top of Google App Engine need to police what their applications are being used for?

Will Google expect businesses to police their users according to the Google Webmaster Guidelines as well as according to the law?

Please discuss :)

Dave76, you took the words right out of my fingers as I was typing them!

With respect to OpenSocial, how will Google ensure that all participants play fair, obey the rules and use the APIs as intended?

For example, I've often posted things that I'm comfortable with a friend reading but I'm not so comfortable with a potential employer reading.  I can imagine that some potential employers will happily join an "Evil Networking" site that selectively chooses to ignore or otherwise lies their way around technical protections, in the name of researching candidates.

Since we're piling on the google bandwagon - I'd ask how they can justify the whole bending to the Chinese government thing...

But as for technical questions, nope - none really.  I like some of their products, but they have turned people off from REALLY relying on their infrastructure for business needs. 

I planned on going to google checkout, but ran right back to paypal after trying to get it working with my site.  It surely does not need to be that elaborate - and I am not keen on the stories I have heard about shutting down accounts with money in them - with no recourse.

That does not sound like "Don't be evil" to me.

Correction to my previous post... web2py's data layer provides an abstraction on top of the App Engine datastore.  So code written for that framework should port easily between App Engine and hosts that support other web2py compatible database engines (MySQL, MSSQL, etc.), assuming that the features not available on App Engine (like JOIN) are avoided.

Andy, Tim - I don't know if our guest can speak to Google Checkout, let alone Google/China. But these other questions we will definitely be asking!

Interview happens 5/15: any other questions?

> But these other questions we will definitely be asking!

Nice one Bob :)  A partner and I actually have big plans for an application for webmasters and SEOs,  built on top of Google App Engine, and the concerns that I raised are particularly relevant to what we're planning.

I think the last time I put in a question was for your Delphi interview, and the answers you got were very useful.  I'll certainly be looking forward to this Google interview.